Is Duke + Robertson > Stanford?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
1

<p>Here's the deal folks. I am admitted into Stanford (early approval), and I am a finalist for Robertson (one of the best full rides in the country: Robertson</a> Scholars: Homepage). I know it's presumptuous to ask this question, as Robertson decision hasn't been made and won be until about a month. But, unfortunately, once the decision is made, there will be precious little time to make up my mind. Robertson wants decisions made by April 14. </p>

<p>So i have begun to ponder about this question. i would appreciate your honest feedback which may be helpful to me and perhaps other Robertson finalist who might have make a difficult choice. (you can insert Princeton and Harvard in place of Stanford, two other schools that I have applied to, which will cause me some grief if I had to let go).</p>

<p>i also feel that everyone will be in a mad scramble choosing among their top choices, there is little time for reflection on this question.</p>

<p>details wise: I am leaning toward engineering, possibly biomedical. I know D is good in biomedical. But S is all around good in engineering and the rest.</p>

<p>$ wise, S is giving me about 19k leaving about $35k short - that's $140+ k for 4 years.</p>

<p>my parents tell me to make decision independent of $, but I know it will be a strain on them (second mortgage) given the economy.</p>

<p>I haven't visited either school. But from what i have heard, both sound swell.</p>

<p>please let me know. I will post this on S board as well.</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

2

<p>While the value of paying for college tuition, fees, room and board, etc. is of significant value (>$200,000), I think it's also important to mention some of the other benefits the Robertson offers.</p>

<p>The Robertson offers full funding for three years of summer internships, travel and research. It also offers funding for academic-year opportunities such as traveling to conferences, as well as personalized advising and unique access to faculty, alumni, and other resources of both Duke and UNC-Chapel Hill.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I think the true benefit of the Robertson is its ability to push you to take full advantage of all of the amazing opportunities it puts at your fingertips.</p>

<p>The Robertson is arguably more prestigious than Stanford. It's certainly more selective -- more than 1,600 people specifically requested to be considered for the scholarship this year, and all 40,000+ applicants to Duke and UNC were considered.</p>

3

<p>Before you make any decision, ask yourself why Duke offers "merit" money in the first place. </p>

<p>IMHO, this is because Duke knows that otherwise it cannot ever compete with Stanford (or MIT, HYP, etc.) for top students. Then ask yourself why despite bribing students with money and manipulating enrollment via early decision, Duke's yield rate is still a strikingly weak 40-44%. (Stanford's, by comparision, is 72%.) If Duke is such a great school, then why do most of its very own applicants choose to enroll elsewhere? What about the students who end up stuck at Duke? What kind of students must they be that they likely couldn't get in somewhere better? (Revealed preferences demonstrate this.) Is this the caliber of classmates for which you want to settle? Do you want to be with the best of the best? Or meh? </p>

<p>You mentioned that you were interested in engineering. Unless you are 100% sure that you want to study bio-medical engineering, then you should go with Stanford. No offense, but Stanford engineering makes Duke (Pratt) engineering look like community college. Not only that, but Silicon Valley's resources and opportunities would be limitless for you. </p>

<p>But what if you change your mind and want to study something else? In virtually every single discipline, Stanford >>> Duke.</p>

<p>You have the rest of your life to make money. You only have one chance at Stanford (or Harvard or Princeton).</p>

4

<p>Not to be harsh, but I think that's a pretty arrogant perspective, nyccard.</p>

<p>But by your own logic, then shouldn't the fact that the Roberton's yield is higher than Stanford's say something, too?</p>

5

<p>Yes, ThoughtProvoking, it does say something. It says that most kids can be bribed with money. Duh?! </p>

<p>But we're comparing apples and oranges here. Take the opposite scenario, for instance. Let's say that Stanford were to offer a merit scholarship and a Duke admittee won it. Do you seriously think that s/he'd be having similar reservations like the OP? Of course not. S/he'd be in Palo Alto faster than you can spell <em>google</em>.</p>

<p>All I know is that, according to the NY Times, Stanford wins 92% of the cross-admit battles with Duke. Presumably, some of that eight percent includes Duke scholarship winners. Otherwise, the stats would be skewed even more in favor of Stanford.</p>

<p>In other words, on an even playing field, Duke is not in Stanford's league.</p>

6

<p>nyccard, sheesh, angry for any particular reason? Your comments are ridiculous and make it sound like Duke is a second rate institution. The decision is personal and depends on personal circumstances and fit.</p>

<p>"bribing students with money"
Ok, whatever you say. With that logic, Stanford bribes about 10% of its students with athletic scholarships. How pathetic. Scholarships are not "bribes." </p>

<p>"What kind of students must they be that they likely couldn't get in somewhere better?"</p>

<p>The caliber of Duke students is tremendous and your comments are ridiculous. There always somebody "better", "richer", "prettier", whatever....I'd concede that the GPA/SAT/extracurricular of Stanford students is marginally better than Duke students, but to say they're not even close is ridiculous. BOTH student bodies are among the finest in the world. This is like comparing a Bugatti to a Bentley - they're both amazing even though a Bugatti might be slightly better. Trust me, you'll be impressed with Duke students' diverse accomplishments and they are great students.</p>

<p>"Is this the caliber of classmates for which you want to settle? Do you want to be with the best of the best? Or meh? "</p>

<p>Meh? Arrogant much? As I said before, Stanford students are amazing and probably a bit more accomplished than Duke students, but its not a grave difference and Duke students are still some of the finest in the country/world. Duke is a top ten institution for a reason.</p>

<p>"Stanford engineering makes Duke (Pratt) engineering look like community college"</p>

<p>Have you enrolled in both Stanford and Duke's engineering programs? I assume not, so there's no way you can know. Have you even enrolled in one? Perhaps. I know Pratt very well (biomed in particular) and I can tell you it has top notch students, faculty, and resources. It provides limitless opportunities and a spectacular background for a variety of careers with 2/3 of its students participating in research before graduation and its graduates going to the best engineering firms, biotechs, i-banks, consulting firms, grad, medical, law schools, etc. Stanford engineering is also world-class and DOES have a few more departments. If somebody wants to study Aeronautics, obviously it makes more sense to go to Stanford since Duke doesn't offer such a program. That is a legitimate reason to choose Stanford over Duke - not because Duke's engineering is "like [a] community college" - that's just an absurd statement.</p>

<p>"In other words, on an even playing field, Duke is not in Stanford's league."</p>

<p>I'd concede that Stanford wins the vast majority of cross admits as does HYPM over Duke. Those five are it really. Compared to all other schools, Duke is relatively on par with or higher than in prestige and selectivity. </p>

<p>"It says that most kids can be bribed with money. Duh?! "</p>

<p>ThoughtProvoking's point was that the Robertson is much more than money. It's a program that gives even greater accessibility to internships and research than a typical Duke (or Stanford) student. Being a Robertson is not just being a typical Duke student + free. it provides a LOT of other non-monetary benefits.</p>

<p>In the end, it's a personal decision depending on your financial situation, your interests, and FIT. They are both world-class institutions and will both provide you with ample opportunities for great things. Again, I concede that Stanford gets the vast majority of cross-admits, but it's not like Duke is chopped liver...and it will also provide you with a great springboard. Follow your gut, I'd say. If it has been your lifelong dream to attend Stanford/Harvard/Princeton, then go there. If you find the Robertson's perks too hard to pass up, love the Duke campus, basketball, etc., then go to Duke. Good luck!</p>

7

<p>Hi all, thank you for your opinions. $ are tangible and easy to see. I appreciate the contrast in nyccard's views. In fact, i lik ethat he took such a drastically opposite view compared to most others - and gave soem points to ponder. He does have soem valid points after all Roberstson picks about 50 to fill 36 spots, a yield of 72%, somewhat low considering the incredible nature of the scholarship. </p>

<p>And blue dog, thank you for rebutting nyccard's opinions.</p>

<p>I hope i will have that choice in making the final decision..</p>

<p>the benefit of visit should further clear the scene for me. thanks again.</p>

8

<p>The 50 is for both UNC and Duke. Duke has a much higher retention (yield) than UNC so that number is slightly skewed. That said Stanford has the most generous FA package in the nation so it to is trying to bribe students to come, just in a different way. Rather than give more money to a few students it gives a little more to all of its students. For you it is more beneficial, but for me Stanford's FA would have been better. That said I still prefer Duke over Stanford, mostly because of Fit and other reasons, at least for UGA.</p>

9

<p>I don't think Duke does that well with students admitted to the other ivies save Cornell. Duke yield is incredibly low given despite being a pretty good school. Personally I think I would take the $ and run. Stanford is a great school but Duke isn't exactly a community college despite what others might say.--that was kinda funny!</p>

10

<p>The hyp that exists for the top Ivies and Stanford is a bit over the top. My S attends Duke and really loves it. He had other choices including Ivies and a lot of the yield depends on percieved value of attending HYPS. Each one has departments within the school that are stronger than other schools. If you look at international rank of departments for example English at Yale might be the best with Stanford comming in at 56th. Note this is just an example and researching you can find the web sites. People like to go after other schools, the selectivity aspect implies that Duke or any other top tier school has students that so much weaker than other schools so that you would not be intellecually challenged by attending if its not accepted to HYPS. In reality each one of those schools accepts a fairly large number of legacies leaving a much smaller number of well qualified students than they can accept. Stanford like HYP look for a mix of non legacy students from a geographic spread- May they don't want a student because they are looking for a given demographic as well as URM- or kids with incredibly wealthy parents. One child who S outscored and out perfomred was accepted at every school he applied. So looking at yield curves for school quality is a mistake. If you have your choice, do you want a Ferrari, Masserati, Porche, etc. Most peole would pick the one percieved as most exclusive. For anyone deciding what school to attend the thinking man or woman woudl want to research the school and its department and see where they feel their interests would be best matched. If Stanfod has a deparment that has professors you really want to study under then that is where you should go, but for the right reason not because someone tells you the college is more selective. If look at secondary issues- I would admit that proximity to San Fran is a huge plus as long as you have time and a car. Same is true for Harvard- Boston, U Chicago, Columbia - and any other strong school near a major city. Duke is close to a smaller city and has an incredible campus. If location is a factor the discussion we had related to the idea of a mix between a college town with strong academics and a setting that you may not get ever again. That along with other factors were important decisions for us. Itsme - you have to decide for yourself. The only thing I will leave you with is that S attended a highly selective program at a top Ivy. It was so cut throat- you had to stay up 18-20 hours a day to compete for top grades. I could go on a lot more but the back biting turned S off so much- even though he ended up one of the top in his class, that he decided he did not want to attend. Find out a little bit about the students that go to the school you are thinking about atteding.</p>

11

<p>itsme123, I believe that the Robertson Foundation will offer about 45 scholarships this year, aiming for a class of 36 -- expecting a yield of 80%.</p>

<p>That's really as high as you can get in this business - it's the same as Harvard's yield. Some students receive other full-ride merit offers or full need-based aid from other schools. And for a very small number of families, $200,000 is an insignificant amount of money.</p>

12

<p>

Nonsense. Since when is yield an accurate indicator of student success and happiness? Just look at Harvard. Despite being the best university in the country (arguably the world) with a yield rate of 80%, over 20% of graduating seniors stated in their survey that they wouldn't choose Harvard again.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Not to be harsh, but I think that's a pretty arrogant perspective, nyccard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He was directly answering the OP's question. He gave his reasons, and supported each of them with facts. The way the question is set up, no one could answer it "Stanford" without being accused of "arrogance" and being "harsh".</p>

14

<p>I'd say Robertson, for sure, if you're lucky enough to get the scholarship.</p>

<p>I am actually turning down Yale, Dartmouth, and Williams to attend UNC for the Morehead-Cain Scholarship, so our positions are not strikingly different.</p>

15

<p>^looks like you didn't agonize over giving up Y that much. what is your intended major? is this largely a financial decision? could you give me some specific thought process you employed. if you like you can pm me. thanks.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
I am actually turning down Yale, Dartmouth, and Williams to attend UNC.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Since RD's are not generally back, how is it that you have three ED's now?</p>

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<p>I can't speak for Ephemeral2, but I presume the "acceptances" were likely letters.</p>

18

<p>Duke may not be as academically high calibered as the Ivies and Stanford, but overall i think Duke is the best school. College isnt all about academics... Duke has the whole package: a stellar academic program, sports, and a great social scene. take the money</p>

19

<p>my 2 cents...</p>

<p>itsme, if I had your choice now, as a sophomore in college, I would go with the free option (Duke). However, when I was applying to colleges, I think I would have gone to Stanford. I'll admit that I was pretty caught up in the "name game" and the more selective a name, the more I wanted to go there. While I still can see how graduating from Harvard or Stanford or Yale or whatever has that name and how that degree is so appealing, I'm realizing now that name (especially when the difference is so little) doesn't really matter. In the long run, how much does a degree from Duke vs. a degree from Stanford matter? If you go to Stanford and do very well, that may look somewhat better than going to Duke and doing very well, but not by much. </p>

<p>In addition, I think the opportunities on campus are probably not significantly different, with both schools having numerous clubs and activities you can join, all sorts of undergraduate research opps and internships you can get. Not to mention the incredibly interesting courses you can take. One plus Stanford may have that Duke doesn't is perhaps well-known faculty - for example, I hear Condoleezza Rice is teaching a course at Stanford next year (and she's the provost there). Does this matter to you? How much?</p>

<p>As far as the actual student body goes, I think it all depends on what you want. At Duke, the student body isn't very "intellectual" in that it's rare to hear people having deep, philosophical conversations. Those people are definitely there, but most of the students aren't that type. That isn't to mean the students aren't smart, though, nor that they don't care about academics. It's just that in their free time, many would rather go to athletic events or party or something. As I don't know what Stanford's students are like, I can't compare this type of culture with Stanford's. From what some of my friends at Stanford say, though, it doesn't seem like the cultures at the schools are too different.</p>

<p>Something to take into consideration that no one has mentioned: a LOT of students going to Duke (and probably Stanford) begin to feel that they really want to do some sort of community service after graduating. I know many who want to do Teach for America or the Peace Corps or something. If you think you might want to do that, I'd say Duke with Robertson is the best option since you won't have a ton of debt to deal with (and sometimes end up having to choose between volunteering and working to pay off debt). Basically, graduating from a great university debt-free leaves you open to any opportunity without being tied down. I think after graduating, that freedom would mean quite a lot to you. </p>

<p>Not sure how much this insanely long post helped you, but I just typed out some of the things that I would want to know/consider when making this kind of decision...</p>

20

<p>I've just been reading a few posts on both of these threads and have noticed that people seem to think that Duke has the "whole scene" while they don't really mention anything about Stanford's scene.....this confuses me. I know that Stanford is superb academically, but do they not have almost everything else that Duke has? Duke has great sports and school spirit but, think about it, so does Stanford. Duke has a rivalry with UNC, Stanford has one with Berkeley (and similarly, both rivals are in close proximity to Duke and Stanford). I've also talked to a lot of Stanford undergrads who have, let's just say, a good time. Also, Stanford would probably "beat" Duke in diversity.</p>