Is EFC per child or per family?

OP I think your twins will be accepted to plenty of great schools, and you have every reason to be proud of them. My point is that there is a tremendous amount of talent out there…sometimes we don’t see it until our kids get out of their HS bubble. And once they leave for college…forget it.

One kid at my daughter’s school raised over $100,000 for different charities. Another boy ran his own music company for 2 years after graduating HS. It can really humble you. This is why I asked if your twins published while doing the GSET program.

“there is no denying that there are personal and professional benefits of attending selective elite colleges.”

Actually I’m not so sure there are consistent or predictable benefits to sending a child to a selective/elite college. Our older son attended our large state university and our daughter just graduated from a “selective” USNWR top 30 school. We are a full-pay family and are fortunate to be able to comfortably afford to do so. After seeing both kids through two completely different schools I would agree with the poster above who says “send them to Rutgers and save the big bucks for grad school.”

There was very little difference between the educational product our son received at a state school and the product offered by our daughter’s elite college. In fact, the career advising at the state school was noticeably better than at our daughter’s school. Both kids ended up with great jobs after graduation–our daughter strictly through her own efforts and our family connections with zero help from her school, our son with significant assistance from his school’s career center. Our son was very successful at his job and clearly quite well prepared for it–our daughter seems to be doing well also.

Clearly our daughter was exposed to a different social mileu than if she had attended a state school, but it’s not clear to us that has conferred any great advantages. She certainly made some great friends in college, but a substantial portion of her social network continues to be based on our family’s network, and her middle/high school connections. I think what a lot of people don’t realize is that college students, particularly at “elite” schools tend to sort themselves out along socioeconomic lines and there is not as much social mobility as parents imagine there will be.

Another thing people overlook is that graduate and professional schools tend to look more closely at GPA than at what school the GPA is from (excepting the Ivies and very elite LACs). So, although our daughter was never seriously interested in grad school, her 3.5 from a well-regarded private university would not have been sufficient for her to successfully apply to PhD programs in her field. Had she been serious about grad school, she would have been a far stronger candidate with a 4.0 GPA from our state school.

Our younger son is applying to college right now and although with $350K left in our 529 accounts, an out of state private college would be quite manageable, we are not convinced enough of the benefit to him to insist that he look at such schools (he really wants to stay in-state).

On a related note, I went to an Ivy League medical school and there is no denying that has opened doors for me professionally. But in thirty years I can safely say it has made no difference whatsoever where I went to college.

College has become a growth industry and there is a lot of marketing, and preying on parents’ insecurities and fears. It’s easy to get sucked into the hype. For families who can easily afford it, it’s probably not a big deal. But families who subject themselves to significant deprivation, or their children to significant educational debt, to afford an “elite” private college, should maybe think twice, because it may not be worth it. Where you go to graduate school is more important than where you go undergrad.

Just my two cents.

There is nothing “ unethical” about different pricing. Happens all the time- with airline tickets, car purchases, etc.

^ Forgot to mention other “sales”. Someone likely paid $179 (full price) for a printer yesterday that cost me $69. Nothing wrong with that at all. I wish people would not blithely throw around the word “unethical”.

Whether it’s worth it or not to attend an elite college is another discussion that has been discussed over and over on CC. There is no right or wrong answer to this debate…too many factors to consider, including cost.

These students have Rutgers as their safety school…the OP already indicated that they would be ok attending if necessary. It appears that they may make the honors program, where they will be with plenty of smart peers and have many opportunities to succeed. My friend’s daughter went to a “regular” OOS state school and then went to Rutgers instate for her DPT (physical therapy). She turned down several programs at “better” schools and is now working at a major, world renowned facility.

We, as parents, tend to place a tremendous amount of time and energy on our kid’s undergraduate education. While I do believe it’s important, the 4 years go by fast and there are many, many variables that impact their future success, however we define it.

Here are just some of the things kids (in our public and private schools )with top stats have done: ( My kids know all of these kids and it’s not even a city)

Kid#1 National merit scholar, ranked #1 NATIONALLY in a sport ( tons of state,regional and other awards related to this sport), on a team that went to the world championships in a STEM field ( and came in #2 and #3 in the last few years out of thousands of teams. Outstanding in math and also has taken many classes outside of school. Great grades. Captain of the team in chosen sport and also does a second sport and is varsity captain.
Kid#2 Got a Summer job at a firm ( think Nasa type), works on very cool projects. Working on Eagle scout. Kid is a current Sophomore.
Kid#3 Developed an app for local community and then sold the app to other kids and donated the $$ to charity. Used the charity to get others to help in their communities. Currently working on other apps for a entrepeneurial contest.
Kid#4 A Junior raised more than 10K for a local food bank. Was trying to donate it anonymously and got called out ( there was a banking issue). Kid is a varsity athlete, top leadership roles. Kid has won more than 10 national awards ( don’t want to cite which) in a variety of fields. Top student.
Kid#5 Top runner in the state. This kid works with handicapped children (since maybe 4th grade) and has done extensive work to get these kids to participate in a run she created. She used the funds raised to buy wheelchairs for kids in need.

Is that enough? This is just in a smallish town with kids we know in both public and private school. There are literally thousands of kids doing AMAZING things. I often see that top scholars often are the ones doing tons of community service, theater, art, music, and so much more. If a kid is a top athlete, they are often a leader as well. A top musician, they often have other artistic pursuits.

Sorry but I think many parents trick themselves into thinking their kids are better than all others. When my kids applied to private school, I was floored by how many kids had top scores and did AMAZING things. There are not that many spots for top schools. Just read up on the web pages of a top college about a winner of a major scholarship. The kids are outstanding.

There are certainly a lot of different variables and situations so there are a lot of different answers to the question of whether it’s “worth it” to send a child to an elite school. I don’t think it’s quite accurate, though, to say “there’s no right or wrong answer.” There are clearly a couple of scenarios which are high-risk and should be evaluated based on facts rather than emotion.

If you are in a lower income bracket (i.e. not the top 10%), taking out loans to send your child to an “elite” school is a risky proposition, as is spending money that you would otherwise devote to retirement savings. Many students who take out substantial loans end up saddled with unsustainable, non-dischargable educational debt which changes their lives and their opportunities forever.

Families who are considering this route should look hard at the school’s ROI (lifetime earnings of a typical graduate, divided by cost of college attendance),

https://www.payscale.com/college-roi

and also consider looking at the New York Times interactive report of a 2017 study of elite schools which evaluated the percentage of students from lower income categories who were successful in moving up two quintiles in income category following graduation (measure of economic mobility). Some schools do better in this regard than others.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html

Also, if your student knows for sure he/she wants to apply to professional school (law, medicine, vet, etc), take a careful look at the school’s track record in terms of actual numbers of graduates gaining admission to those schools. Many colleges boast of good grad/professional school placements, but have fairly ruthless pre-professional weedout programs and students who are not academic superstars may in fact be better off at their state school where they can earn a high GPA and become a successful applicant rather than being weeded out in a more competitive environment. Some elite schools like to imply that a 3.5 from their school is equivalent to a 3.8 from a less competitive school, but that is simply not the case. Medical schools for example are inundated with so many applicants that they use GPA as a screening tool, without regard to where the applicant is from. Elite colleges know this which is why some of them will not support a pre-med application from a student whose GPA is not at a certain level.

That is not to say that attending an elite college or university is not worth the investment. It could be. But the chances that it will be should be evaluated based on data about the school, and careful consideration of the student and his or her circumstances and plans, not the school’s marketing materials, which are carefully designed to play on emotions and conceal potentially negative information.

For full pay families who have retirement savings, though, it’s still a judgement call. Who is to say how much is enough to retire? More is always better. One can’t see the future. A family doesn’t know if it will need that money when it’s time to decide on whether to spend it on college or not.

When I say there is no right or wrong answer, I mean that every family does what is best for their family and child. That decision isn’t always easy…

@homerdog, I couldn’t agree more. If we had not had educational funds for our children, and had had to spend money that would otherwise have gone into our retirement, I would likely be less philosophical about our D’s experience at her “elite” college. As it is, she frequently mentions that if she had to do it all over again she would strongly consider going in-state. She was part of a close-knit group of friends in public high school who were excellent students (but not geniuses), and quite social. Only one of them went in-state but that girl pledged to the top sorority, was invited to join a prestigious social society as an upperclassman and had a great time during college, all while compiling an academic record strong enough to gain her multiple admissions to excellent vet schools.

I know my D thinks about her friend, and contrasts her own experience in college, which was filled with a fair amount of stress , disappointment and frustration as she navigated an environment in which she was no longer a big fish in a small pond, and had to watch a certain “winner-takes-all” culture at play. I think for her it was a good learning experience, but every student is different. For a student with less grit and resilience than our D, and access to fewer external resources, it could have felt quite defeating, and resulted in negatively altering the course of her life.

@WFUparent yeah. Money is money unless it’s in a 529 and it’s hard to know what to save in there since you don’t know ahead of time how your toddler will turn out or where they want to go to school! We were fairly conservative in our 529 deposits since we could only use it for education. It doesn’t make sense to shoot for $300k for each child even when they hit high school. You still have no idea what their grades will be or if they’ll really want to go to state school that costs so much less.

So, I’m guessing that most families (including the OP) don’t have full elite school tuition in savings marked for college. It’s very tempting to just set the budget as whatever has been saved in there but, for us, it was just a little random how much we settled on putting in.

@homerdog very true it can be difficult to figure out how to allocate savings into the 529 accounts when they are young. When our kids were little we decided to save for college assuming they would all go to “stanford level” colleges (as our financial planner put it)–haha-- and then of course none of them did. So we have a lot left over, but we can use it for college for grandchildren, or for graduate school or even (I think) to give scholarships to others. So we don’t worry too much about having 529 money left over.

@WFUparent Ooph. That seems pretty unfortunate. We would want to be in charge of what we want to do with that money. We planned to not have “extra” when depositing money into a 529. One can still save money outside of a 529 and use it to pay for school. The OP did not seem to over-invest in his 529 and I think that’s probably wise.

Anyway, a topic for a different thread!

Dropping from 350k to 250k drops you all the way from 99th percentile to 98th percentile in the US.

It’s a well-known phenomenon that Americans consider wealthy to be someone who makes a multiple of their income, regardless of where that number is.

I was slightly above these numbers, but accepted I would fully pay for college for all of my kids many years ago when I was at or below those levels. And I planned/saved/prepared appropriately.

Frankly, any level of due diligence and preparation should make these numbers unsurprising.

@homerdog we actually wouldn’t have extra, but one of our children died last year. The extra is money that he would have used for graduate school.

@WFUparent oh gosh. I’m so sorry.

Income is more like $390k or $400k (not $350k) with the 401k contributions added back, correct?

@Al73

@Madison85 I think he said the income included the contributions to tax deferred retirement accounts…

Hoping he clarifies again.

@Al73

I think maximum contributions are $19k, and individuals over 50 can contribute an additional $6k, for a maximum of ~$25k each. If $350k is after the 401k contributions then total income with that ~$50k is close to $400k. A $100k drop would still leave them at $300k. That’s too much for need based aid.

Oh brother. Yes…if the $350,000 income doesn’t include the max retirement contributions…this could easily add $40,000 or so to their income.

And when the income “drops” to $250,000…adding $40,000 will bring it to $290,000.

I don’t think need based aid is in the picture…at all.

Hopefully these twins will get merit aid at some of their possible colleges. But places that don’t give merit aid…will be very costly.