Is elite college worth the extra cash? (Deadline is today)

College Search & Selection
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<p>If I understand right, OP is wondering ED to HAverford (which, based on the numerous threads, s/he really wants to do but worries about) or School B or UMBC, which used to be a strong contender but no longer is since OP doesn’t have the full ride s/he thought s/he could get.
Haverford would cost $17,000 before loans and parental contributions.</p>

<p>

Because Haverford is a Profile school. It requires lots and lots of information about your assets, investments, debts and loans (from a bank, credit card, federal/education, even family loans…), even the brand and year of your car… Mortgage and debt are taken into account when calculating how much the family can pay. Having 3 children in college full time would automatically decrease the EFC for all, but of course it may not matter very much for a state school and is unlikely to matter at a community college. Still, 3 in college will affect the EFC at Haverford. In addition, Haverford is a no-loans school, so that students are free to pay part of the family contribution with a loan if they wish.
All in all, two teachers with that much debt and 3 children in college shouldn’t have that high of an EFC at a wealthy, no-loan school like Haverford. That’s why I think OP should apply and see, and if indeed parents can’t pay without taking a loan, then OP should not let them take on that much debt and turn down Haverford, but AFTER OP knows what’s what with Haverford.
Haverford may well be $17,000 (so -work study and federal loans =?, $10-11,500 for parents and if they are $23,000 in debt already that may be too much.) That’s why OP needs to apply to a variety of schools and scholarships right now. If it’s Haverford for $11,500 vs. UMBC for $21,000, I think it’s a no brainer. If OP has a good scholarship to UMBC with less than $10,000 to cover (with a $5,500 loan it’d mean $4,500 for the parents - but be careful because UMBC actually packages the loan so that the $5,500 are already included in the financial package and can’t be used for the EFC) and Haverford isn’t affordable, it’s also a no brainer. OP isn’t likely to be taken on outside of ED/Athletics at Haverford. As another poster mentioned, it could well be that only ED athletes are recruited (and possibly awarded the maximum amount in scholarships). However, if Op’s stats make it possible to get into Haverford RD with a similar scholarship and odds to play on the team, it may be an option - it just doesn’t sound like it’s a possibility at this point.
It looks like Haverford is a school that would be most likely to offer a nice financial aid package (generous aid, no loans) so at worst if Haverford isn’t affordable OP should just turn down the offer explaining it costs too much and go to the option that’s most affordable.
OP: does school B offer to meet 100% need without loans, too?
I totally agree with posters that say that OP should not go to a school where s/he would drown in debt.</p>

42

<p>If school B is the other LAC, then it says to “meet” 100% need, but I would likely have a 25k left to pay, with a 7k loan, rather than 19-20k left to pay. So haverford is a no loan package while the other LAC includes loans.</p>

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<p>Thought this might be useful.
[2013</a> Guide To FAFSA, CSS Profile, Expected Family Contribution (EFC) And College Aid - Forbes](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2013/01/02/2013-simplified-guide-to-expected-family-contribution-efc-and-college-aid/]2013”>2013 Guide To FAFSA, CSS Profile, Expected Family Contribution (EFC) And College Aid)</p>

<p>If you have a scholarship to UMBC then you’ll have to compare costs carefully, but as of now it looks like Haverford is your cheapest choice since the other LAC is more expensive and with loans, and without scholarship/financial aid, UMBC is about $21,000 in state. (Tuition is not too bad but mandatory fees + room&board basically double the costs.)</p>

44

<p>If your parents make $200,000/yr, as you have said in another thread, then that package that you are being offered probably already takes your sister’s school costs into account. </p>

<p>The best thing you could do would be to persuade brother to go to regular 4 yr college and then more of parents EFC and loans would accrue to him instead of you, so your grant package would increase. (jk, jk)</p>

<p>But seriously, you understand that when sister graduates from college(how many more years?) that your FA package will be reduced and your costs increased substantially? Have you taken this into account? Your package is dependent on what your brother and sister are doing. When you all are in school the EFC is increased somewhat, but then split between you so that any student at a very expensive school, and you seem to be the only one considering that, benefits by a large FA package. As soon as you are the only one in school, all that EFC is on you. I don’t understand exactly, but you seem to be saying that your parents don’t pay anything for sister and she covers all costs with loans? If your parents are willing to support you in your decision, it doesn’t sound like any of that support is going to be financial. You seem to be a smart kid with good stats- great grades and rigor and pretty good test scores. Are you sure there aren’t cheaper options for you where you could still play your sport? If I were you I’d be lining up some sort of sure full ride somewhere just in case, regardless of what you decide to do tomorrow. For peace of mind.</p>

45

<p>*If your parents are willing to support you in your decision, it doesn’t sound like any of that support is going to be financial. *</p>

<p>I think she means that her parents will “support” her decision by co-signing loans. However, I don’t think the parents have considered that by co-signing the sister’s loans, and then co-signing the OP’s loans, that soon the parents will no longer qualify to co-sign.</p>

<p>And, if the brother transfers from a CC to a state school in 2 years, then HE’LL have loans to co-sign as well. Doesn’t sound like the parents have “looked ahead.” It sounds like they’re just using their signature as a quick way to ignore the elephant in the room.</p>

<p>Someone made a great point that once sister graduates, then the OP’s family contribution will be much higher.</p>

<p>With 4 years of debt from undergrad, and the debt from that 5th year (another $60k or so), this student will end up with well over $100k in debt (that’s if the parents’ cosigning ability holds out.</p>

46

<p>Wait, how can teachers earn $200,000? Even in Rockville I doubt teachers make that much. Even at private schools I doubt they’d each make $100,000. Unless dad is the principal or the dean of the boarding school, and mom works for him and has a very very comfortable salary.
Or is that your personal estimate?
(To give you an idea: only about 2% people in the US make $200,000 or more. For two teachers in comfortable districts, we could expect income to be between $80,000 and 110,000 total.)
Something is not right in what you’re telling us.</p>

<p>The total debt you should shoulder (with parents co-sgning or not) is $5,500 your first year and a little more the following year, for a total of 27-30,000 TOTAL. And even that is difficult to pay back. If your only choice is being $80,000 in debt then there’s no good choice and you need to look for other colleges.</p>

<p>There are lots of good schools in MD. If your income is too high to get much financial aid at the local state college, check out McDaniel, Goucher. Sometimes private colleges end up being cheaper for high incomes.
As for public colleges, what about St Mary’s of Maryland, the State’s Honors College?</p>

<p>Ironically, yes, if your brother goes to a 4 year college, it decreases both your and his EFC, so by choosing community college to “save money” he may not save that much money to your family if you count over 4 years… Of course it depends on his grades, interests, preparation, and prospects, why doesn’t he apply to the local state school? not sure whether it’d be a logical possibility if all you get is more loans but can he get a scholarship somewhere?.. If it’s unaffordable he can then go to community college - it’s open enrollment and they accept application till June or July, well after you’d have your financial award letter. So after 2 years, when both your sister and your brother (if he’s at community college) graduate, you’d have to pay much more.</p>

<p>However something here doesn’t make sense.</p>

47

<p>it’s unaffordable he can then go to community college - it’s open enrollment and they accept application till June or July, well after you’d have your financial award letter.</p>

<p>??</p>

<p>If you’re suggesting that she’d get more money if the school thought brother is attending a four year college, but then actually attend a CC…you’re mistaken. Once school starts, schools do check to see if siblings are enrolled…just for that reason. </p>

<p>Maybe these parents are administrators or special ed or something that pays more? Or maybe they have a side business or work over summers?</p>

48

<p>I think a student who has an interest in engineering should go to a school that *has *engineering. Otherwise, how will the student ever find out if this is good career path for them if there is no exposure to it?</p>

49

<p>You can get exposure to engineering even though you attend a non engineering LAC by working as an intern in an engineering position and by taking an engineering course or two in the summers at a local university as S1 did. You need to major in physics ideally to make this work. S1 found he liked engineering and is now in a top engineering graduate program. So I would not limit yourself to only engineering schools especially since you seem not 100 percent sure about engineering.</p>

<p>Another thought: There is a huge size difference between UMBC and the smaller LACs. Think about where you can see yourself and what you want your college experience to be.</p>

50

<p>

Gosh no. :s Sorry for the confusion. I meant, if the brother is “sacrificing” because he thinks the family won’t be able to handle three tuitions, it may not be a good calculation, so he shouldn’t do it unless he knows for sure his “sacrifice” of delaying the 4-year school is worth it financially and so he should apply to the 4 year school he wants <em>if he wants to</em>. It probably is cheaper for all involved if he attends a community college but it is not certain, depending on the way Haverford calculates EFC. If it’s his choice to attend CC, then this message is moot.</p>

<p>I’m still puzzled by two teachers who make $200,000. ($17,000 EFC for $200,000 would indeed be pretty good - at that level fo income, most families would be expected to spend about $65,000 on their three children in college if not more.) The family seems to be struggling financially and having the sister pay for school entirely on loans, which doesn’t mesh with a $200,000 income unless the family has a house “under water” but the mortgage would still diminish the EFC. Could the parents not have been truthful with their children on how much they make? </p>

<p>I agree there is a huge difference between UMBC and a top LAC, especially for someone who’s not sure about engineering.
However OP could try for St Mary’s of MD (public honors) in addition to UMBC.</p>

51

<p>It’s not unknown for public school teachers with 20-25 years of experience to be pulling down $90-100k/yr. Multiply that by two, and supplement that with some summer income teaching or tutoring and you’re at $200k. Or make one of them a principal or administrator, and you get to that number easily. Most district superintendents in my part of the country earn $200k+ and have a nice benefits package that includes a car.</p>

<p>Don’t believe for one second that public school teachers are poorly paid. That’s only true at the beginning. If they have 20 years of experience, which a couple with 3 kids in college could have, they’re likely very well paid.</p>

52

<p>The parents may or may not have a $200k income. they may have supplemental income from some souce. </p>

<p>That said, it is odd that with that income they can’t pay anything towards college. It’s strange that educators did little to prepare for their 3 kids to go to college, but it is what it is.</p>

<p>The bigger concern (to me) is that the parents are “taking the easy way out” (they think) by offering their signature for loans…not realizing that at some point (likely before the kids graduate) the banks will say, “no, you have cosigned too much debt, so no more qualifying.” Then what? the kids come home from college with no degrees and lots of debt.’’</p>

<p>I know that these are adults and they should know their situation, but I’ve seen this before here on CC. Kids getting to their Junior years and then parents can’t qualify for loans anymore. My own MIL behaved this way. she never wanted to tell her kids, “no” so she’d cosign anything…til the banks said, “no”.</p>

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<p>In my school district, which is well off, they start at $41-45,000, but in nearby (rural) districts they start around $33,000, and I haven’t investigated the salary progression, but with cutbacks etc, I assumed salaries weren’t that high. I know that in my district, the average salary for a teacher with experience is about 65k and it’s supposed to be good. But perhaps OP’s parents live around the Mainline or something :).
Thanks MrMom anyway. In another thread there was a discussion about whether it’s worth to pay private school tuition for a kid who wants to be a teacher with the assumption the kid won’t make enough money to pay back the loans (vs. what if the kid doesn’t become a teacher and the more expensive college helps with the actual major?)</p>

<p>

Very true.
For instance, how come a family who’s clearing $200,000 can’t afford to contribute at all toward $23,000 state school so that it’s all loans? Is that a choice? Do the parents see it as an “easy way out”? Are there other financial circumstances - in which case the financial aid application should take it into account? (OP, you don’t need to answer this, but you need to ask your parents)
As you say, Mom2CK, very soon they won’t be allowed to co-sign and then what will happen?
There’s one thing that’s even worse than graduating with a lot of debt - it’s having a lot of debt, and not graduating…</p>

54

<p>Just thinking. If you are getting your estimate from a NPC, are you saying both siblings are in college, or just one? The NPCs don’t ask for costs of siblings colleges, but assume higher costs than community college/living at home. They will be dividing your parent’s EFC by 3 and putting 1/3 of it to each of you. If brother’s costs are way lower, that changes the calculations. You might get a more accurate idea of your costs by running the NPC with one sibling in college. Then your net costs you can guess might be reduced from that result by a couple thousand.</p>

<p>MYOS, the brother seems to be making a quite rational decision, based on the limited info we have here. Unless he has very good stats and qualifies for at least full tuition scholarship somewhere. The parents don’t seem able to help pay for college costs. If it’s all paid for by each student, then community college for 2 years is a very sound decision. As far as I can tell, there is no joint family cost here. Each child will bear the burden of his own choice alone.</p>

<p>MYOS, the EFC is probably 19K x 3 = 57K if they are running NPC with 3 kids in college, which seems about right for $200,000.</p>

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<p>My D’s best friend from HS has parents who are both teachers in local high schools in which almost all the top half of students go on to college. They did not assist or guide her in any way in the app process. She was on her own and having trouble finding something suitable within limits of family finances. Then one parent finally did something that seemed useful, heard about a full-ride scholarship at a state school that she then applied for and received. But guess what? It was mostly loans and a bit of scholarship, not full-ride at all. They had never read the description carefully. They realized this in May, refused to sign the loans and she is living at home, commuting to community college.</p>

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<p>Yup, I estimated that reasonable would be 60-65,000 for a family making 200,000, /3 that makes the $17,000 offer from Haverford both sensical and generous since 21-25 is what the family could expect.
If 17,000 is the best OP can expect for need-based, as I assume it is since Haverford is generous, then the only way OP will end up paying less ONLY is if s/he gets a merit scholarship somewhere.
In MD, there’s Coppin, but if OP is academically qualified for Haverford, I don’t think Coppin would be a good choice. :s </p>

<p>OP would try for colleges where he’d get merit aid for his stats, such as McDaniel or Goucher (assuming he’s competitive for Haverford) or look into other D3 schools that have his sport and see if he can be recruited AND get academic merit money. That might be a tall order…</p>

57

<p>Savannah is a girl’s name…</p>

<p>And she will probably end up paying much more if brother goes to community college.</p>

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<p>*In another thread there was a discussion about whether it’s worth to pay private school tuition for a kid who wants to be a teacher with the assumption the kid won’t make enough money to pay back the loans *</p>

<p>I think the issue there is two-fold:</p>

<p>1) The loan pay-back period is during the first 10 years of employment…when salaries are lowest…especially those first few years. Hard to pay back loans and pay living expenses on $35k per year.</p>

<p>2) Teachers aren’t paid more just because they went to a pricey school. The teacher who went to a CC and then commuted to the local state school for $6k per year will earn the SAME amount as the person who went to the $60k per year school…so what’s the point if debt was needed or the parents’ savings was annihilated?</p>

<p>Savannah is a girl’s name</p>

<p>yes, it is…but do we know if the student is using her name or could a male student be using his city’s name?</p>

<p>And she will probably end up paying much more if brother goes to community college.</p>

<p>That may be. But, it’s not her brother’s job to take on debt for those first two years just so his sibling can get more aid. If the brother goes to a state school, his parents won’t pay. He’ll have to borrow all costs.</p>

59

<p>mom2, You are right, could just as easily be a he</p>

<p>I don’t think her brother should change his choice to help his sister, far from it. I think he is being smart. But just worried that the $19K number she is quoting may be on the low side of what she’ll be expected to pay. If she realizes it may be a few thousand more per year than expected, it will help her make a more informed decision.</p>

60

<p>So, OP, today’s the date… what did you decide?</p>