<p>hey tom what do you think about my comment up above? i pretty much said the jist of what you said</p>
<p>tom, that is my point exactly. By virtue of your point that 1/3 go to ivy that means 2/3 do not. I think most if not many want to attend an ivy but will not have a chance because the competition at Exeter and Andover is significantly tougher than at my PS.</p>
<p>So my point is 2/3 of the people might end up at a lesser school because they did not perform as well while at Exeter and Andover as compared to how they would have performed if they stay at PS which would have ultimately made them look stronger on college applications. </p>
<p>Everyone point to the top 1/3 what I am saying is I am worried I’ll be in the bottom 2/3 fighting and struggling to get into a school I could have easily gotten into if I had stayed at PS. Tom, u urself admitted your working harder for lower grades right? That makes me nervous.</p>
<p>Also, to your point that some are not that talented as that can be me right. Not everyone accepted into E and A are good which can mean for them, me included, it might be better to take an easier program. According to many Andover is easier than Exeter so the option is should I stay in PS or take what appears to some an easier program at Andover? Exeter seems downright scary.</p>
<p>Worktowin, </p>
<p>What tells you that people who belong in the “lesser 2/3” would have gone to Ivy’s or “higher than average” colleges had they stayed back in their old schools?
Are you aware of how many valedictorians and students with 2400s on the SAT apply to these “higher than average” colleges? They’re mostly in the top 5% if not the top 1% of their schools. But do they all get into your definition of top colleges? No.
Chances are that you’re only excelling at PS because it’s that much easier.
Colleges know this as much as they know the difficulty of classes at Exeter and Andover.
Now does a valedictorian from a public school in California have a better chance than someone who places 40-50 out of 300 (in terms of GPA) at Exeter? Not necessarily, depending on the difficulty of the PS.</p>
<p>MIT just admitted fewer than 20% of the valedictorians that applied. The figures for Harvard and Yale will undoubtedly be even lower. Being a high school academic superstar doesn’t guarantee admission to one’s dream school. Optimize your high school experience by pursuing the best education you can within the bounds of your interests, skills, personality, preferences, etc. and develop your passions - both academic and non-academic. If you do that the college chips should fall nicely for you. That may or may not mean attending school in Cambridge (MA or UK), Palo Alto, New Haven, etc., but there is a very high probability it will lead to a good outcome at a high quality college or university.</p>
<p>Worktowin, you completely misunderstood my last post. It’s not your point exactly, it’s completely the opposite. I’m saying that it’s not more likely you’ll get into an Ivy by doing well at your public school than if you were to come to Andover or Exeter. As I said, colleges know that academics at top prep schools are on a completely different level than most other schools. As another poster before me said, admissions officers know the difference between a public school A and a prep school A. A prep school C might be equivalent to some public school A’s, for example.</p>
<p>Either way, worktowin, it’s EXTREMELY unlikely you’ll be rewarded anywhere in life for taking the easier route. If you think you can get into an Ivy more easily by choosing not to push yourself at prep school, you’re <em>probably</em> mistaken. About 50% of Ivy students come from public schools, yes, but the other 50% come from forms of private education. Only 10% of Americans of high school age go to private high schools. What does that tell you?</p>
<p>boom that just happened</p>
<p>@ TomTheCat well said</p>
<p>Hey Tom, the numbers quoted in an article in The Phillipian might challenge your notion and demonstrate that numbers going to top schools are declining at Andover:</p>
<p>[A</a> Closer Look at College Admissions | News | The Phillipian](<a href=“http://phillipian.net/article/8205]A”>Article: Antonio Pulgarin Speaks to Toxic Masculinity, LGBTQ+ Rights, and Latinx Issues in New Exhibition “Whispers of a Caballero.” – The Phillipian)</p>
<p>Contrary to your belief, and according to the article, it is increasingly difficult even for graduates of Andover to gain admission to top schools. Plus if you look at the bell curve for graduate grades from Andover, at College Counseling, unless you’re high 5s you might not be competitive due to the number of students who actually achieve that distinctive grade. This does not bode well as I was shocked by what I read (in addition to the article in the Phillipian).</p>
<p>Notwithstanding, it might be a good thing for people to realize that the Ivy shouldn’t be the sole objective of going to a high caliber school like Andover. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity for myself I checked out the grade distribution in the pdf hyperlinked below:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/CCO%20Profile%202008_BW.pdf[/url]”>http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/CCO%20Profile%202008_BW.pdf</a></p>
<p>The curve is at the bottom of the page and you can see that 47.9 percent of all students at Andover have an average of 5 or higher. If we can, not sure if you can, apply this percentage to the senior class that would mean if you’re not averaging a 5 you’re in the bottom half of the graduating class thus putting you at a significant disadvantage at differentiating yourself from other classmates might become difficult. Evidence points to the possibility of grade inflation? Any correlation to the drop in admissions to top schools and rising averages at Andover? I wish we could have the Director of College Counseling comment on this? Mr. Anderson are you available for a comment?</p>
<p>I have to get back to work so didn’t look as carefully; however, the numbers, admissions to top schools, are similarly trending downward at Exeter. Not sure about grade inflation at Exeter. I did not search for articles or attempt to triangulate the info from other sources for Exeter so if someone else can look into other sources that would be great.</p>
<p>I think the problem I see with the data is the possibility that a student can end up working really hard, as TomTheCat suggested, at Andover (or POSSIBLY Exeter) but given POSSIBLE grade inflation and a move to greater meritocracy in college admission (Mr. Anderson’s comment) plus half of the class at PA having a 5 or higher might be causing a decline in the number of acceptances at the top schools. </p>
<p>If you disagree please don’t disagree with my hypothesis as they are driven from the article which quotes the Dir of College Counseling, Herr Anderson, that top school admission is declining. Also, the grade distribution curve provided by Andover’s college counseling office which clearly shows 47.9 percent of all students at Andover having a 5 (honors) or higher. Plus 12 percent of all students have a 5.5 or higher and if we read that into the graduating class that means, assuming 250 seniors and PG, there are ~31 students with 5.5 or higher.</p>
<p>I’m not challenging that the number is declining, but, exsrch, I never said the number was 70%+ as it was 50 years ago. It is around 30% nowadays. I never said otherwise. You must understand that that number is still ludicrously high. Numbers aren’t declining because kids there are any less smart; they’re declining because the overall number of kids who apply to elite institutions is increasing so quickly, and, nobly, schools are looking to diversify - admit public school kids and those with financial need. As, indeed, they should.</p>
<p>I can’t comment on potential grade inflation at Andover. All I can say is that I certainly haven’t been a “victim” of it! What you need to understand, however, is that to colleges, the value grades in and of themselves often are contingent upon the CLASSES they were earned in. A 5 in chem 580 is worth more than a 5 in chem 300. You can’t take two transcripts and comment on who the more intelligent kid is based solely upon GPA. You must know this. This is why earning a 4.5 does not place you in the lower half of the class by default. There’s more to this than comparing numbers, exsrch.</p>
<p>Also, I’m not sure where you found that PDF - it’s outdated. This year’s version is at <a href=“http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/CCOProfile09-Final.pdf[/url]”>http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/CCOProfile09-Final.pdf</a></p>
<p>Hey Tom, I think you bring up a valid point about the value of grades but I can assure you value doesn’t matter that much and this is a fact that I have seen time and time again. I am in the business of hiring people from the top schools, both at the undergraduate and graduate level, for arguably the most coveted jobs after school in management consulting.</p>
<p>Directors of career counseling from the schools most BS apply to work with me. Because of grade inflation and the high number of distinctive grades we don’t spend a lot of time fussing about the value play. Let me give you some advice just make sure you’re getting the best grade possible as the value play alone will not serve your interest. If you need direct coaching or advice about these implications I’d be happy to share things that might open your eyes to the career implication 7 10 years from today.</p>
<p>Another way to say that is if you’re at a top school and you’re not one of the best students, although you may get an interview, it would be tough to get a job no matter the school unless your grades are high. We just don’t sit around worrying about the quality of the program and if your B is worth more because there are, as you can see from the file you attached, to many more people with high grades than there are jobs.</p>
<p>Hey Tom, thanks for the updated numbers. The numbers from this year is mixed with a bit of good news bad news. Total number at 5 or above went down by 3.4 percent but the numbers getting 5.5 went up 4.1 percent</p>
<p>By the way I find this conversation more interesting than the conference call I am on right now in Singapore. I should go find a different job!</p>
<p>Hi Tom, Your belief that 30+ get into top schools, from Andover, should make you even more nervous. I’ve lost sight of the OP reasons but the point I would make is the worrisome part of all of this is that even if 30+ percent of graduates get into a top school (ivy or otherwise) nearly half of the graduates get 5 or higher (that means 1/5 of the graduating class getting a 5 or higher did not make it to a top school?). And to think that it might even be more challenging at Exeter? Not sure about that notion so if anyone has time to chase the facts please do so.</p>
<p>The data implies that if you don’t have a 5.25 or higher your chances are slipping fast to get into a top school that 30 percent of grads get into now (a conjecture based on a WAG).</p>
<p>Once again, I guess that comes down to your definition of top schools. If one can’t see past Ivy+SM, then it’s true that only 36% of last year’s class matriculated at “top schools”. But I have a hard time worrying about the future prospects for my daughter’s friends that are attending Caltech, Duke, Northwestern, Berkeley, NYU and other incredible institutions. Perhaps they don’t count as someone else’s definition of “top” but I’m sure most are quite pleased even though they’ll have to be satisfied with “only” getting into colleges and universities that are legitimately among the top 1%-2% in the country.</p>
<p>Edit: By the way, while the article pointed out that the numbers at the select subset of name brand schools commonly cited are significantly lower than they were a few decades ago, they seem to have stabilized in the 30%+ range. Last year’s 36% was actually the highest in a number of years. I suspect that is because an increasingly diverse Andover (not just ethnically and racially but also socioeconomically) is in sync with the enrollment patterns of leading universities. Nonetheless, some year over year variance is to be expected.</p>
<p>Hey Padre13, the definition doesn’t change the outcomes. I had a quick look and the schools you mention and they had 25 matriculants in 2009 which represents roughly 10 percent of the graduating class. Add that to the 36 percent to the top schools and you’re at 46 percent; however, 47+ percent of all students at Andover got 5 or higher. I would bet most are the top half of the class make up the matriculants. Even if we put another 10 percent or 25 students for other schools that means 40 percent of the graduating seniors don’t make it to a top school (even with the expanded definition Padre provided).</p>
<p>Possible implication is 3/5 of students and parent will likely think they got a great education and got into a great college and 2/5 of students got a great education but fell short of their expectations for where they matriculated. All based on rough estimates but reasonable. My evolving issues is that the 2/5 of the students probably worked pretty hard. Exeter and other top schools are probably similar.</p>
<p>Essentially, the data implies that if you are under a 5 average at Andover you’re not likely to have an advantage in the college admissions process. You clearly would have gotten a great education but if you don’t have a hook the admissions process is going to be more of a nail biting process than those with 5+ averages.</p>
<p>@worktowin, clearly both schools are difficult from a time management and curriculum stand point but the more relevant question is how are going to mature to take on the challenges. Because the data shows most of the people get great grades at both schools which means no matter the obstacle, either with Andover or Exeter, most and in Andovers case, nearly half of the student body rises to meet the challenge by getting honors at 5 or higher. </p>
<p>It’s not about the school it is about you! How are you going to grow? How mature will you be? What are your priorities? These question will either make the school managable and fun or something akin to a trial - congrats on your accpetance and don’t fret about which is harder (although I personally think Exeter is probably harder given comments of alumni and current students) but decide to be the best student at the school that fits you.</p>
<p>Edit: even if it is managble and fun you’ll likely experience periods that will test your faith in making the choice of attending BS. Nothing worth anything will have been easy unfortunately this is usually hindsight.</p>
<p>Exsrch, you’ll have to just accept these statistics I give you, because you will not have access to them as you are not in college counseling at PA. We use Naviance in college counseling, which tracks students’ acceptances and rejections, and provides statistics as such.</p>
<p>According to Naviance, from 2007-2010 (so far), the average GPA of students accepted regular decision at Darmouth is 5.04. Andover’s statistics would seem to indicate that that’s half the class. Well, half of the class doesn’t end up at Dartmouth. This is where my theory on GPA VALUE plays in. Dartmouth accepts 16% of those applicants. Early decision, Dartmouth’s accepted average is 4.93 - and a whopping 41% of applicants from Andover are admitted.</p>
<p>Brown’s RD accepted average is 5.09 and they accept 12%. Their ED average is 4.85 and they accept 36% of these applicants.</p>
<p>Harvard’s RD accepted average is 5.15. That’s kinda low by your reasoning, isn’t it? My response is that no, it’s not, because the kids who get in are taking super advanced courses WHOSE GRADES COUNT FOR MORE. Harvard no longer offers early decision, but when they did, the accepted average was 5.17 and 54 PERCENT of applicants from Andover were accepted.</p>
<p>Princeton’s RD accepted average is 5.12 with a pretty high acceptance rate of 19%. They don’t offer ED.</p>
<p>Stanford’s average RD GPA is 5.15 with an acceptance rate of 15%. Their ED average GPA is 5.12 with an acceptance rate of 49%. By your reasoning, that’s about the 50th percentile.</p>
<p>Other TOP SCHOOLS, like Williams, the NUMBER ONE LAC IN THE COUNTRY, has an RD accepted average GPA of 4.88 with an acceptance rate of 14% and an ED accepted average of 4.63 with a HUGE 60% Andover applicants admitted.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins’ average RD GPA is 4.96 with an Andover acceptance rate of 41%. Their average ED GPA is 4.49 WITH 100 PERCENT OF ED APPLICANTS ADMITTED (8).</p>
<p>You need to understand that no college has an average accepted GPA over 5.17, which belongs to Harvard. These are great numbers. You can theorize all you want about the math, but in the end, college applicants seem to be judged differently than applicants that you evaluate for jobs.</p>