Is Financial Aid fair?

Paying for College
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This concept has taken me awhile to digest, but you are right here. If the Val’s parents had voluntarily chosen to live exactly like the Sal family did and save all the extra money they made, they probably would have had enough to make HYPSM tuition feasible. In outcome they would have ended up the same. </p>

<p>I think some of the problem is in the idea that we tend to have that we have more because we worked harder, made better choices, were wiser. Therefore we deserve to have better things, better homes, and better educations than those who worked less, made poor choices, were unwise. And yes, sometimes it is true, undeniably, that we have worked harder, etc… And sometimes it is not. And since it is the parents and not the student who have made those choices, maybe giving the next generation a shot at leveling the playing field is not all that unfair after all.</p>

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<p>if I had just waited a few years, they would have everything paid for them ( younger son also ranked top of his class). Instead, my wife and I will probably have a high EFC because of our income. Oh well, such is life.</p>

<p>You would have had to have waited more than a few years. You would have had to have waited til both kids were done with college. You graduated 5 years ago. That would have meant graduating about 6 years from NOW. Don’t you think you have and will benefited from having your income during those 10+ years? Not, to mention the increases and seniority and years towards retirement.</p>

<p>*Sal did apply to Stanford/Yale etc but they did not offer enough merit aid to make it worth his while. *</p>

<p>You have bad info…those schools don’t give ANY merit aid. ZERO.</p>

<p>*My oldest son will graduate either #1 or #2 in his class. He works his ____ off. I have read where some people think that it takes brilliance but often it takes more hard work than anything else to achieve high grades. He is a National Merit Scholar, scored a 34 on his ACT, etc., etc… However, because my wife and I earn good incomes, his offers so far have been discouraging. *</p>

<p>*While I will appreciate any scholarship my son receives, we are already being told that he does not qualify for most since they are need based. *</p>

<p>Your son already has need-based financial aid offers? Or have these been estimates from the schools?</p>

<p>Anyway…your son needs to protect himself by applying to some schools with HUGE merit scholarships for his NM status. He could get full rides or near-full-rides. These will be his financial safety schools in case his TOP choices don’t work out. </p>

<p>I totally understand your concerns. ** But, believe me…your options would be far WORSE if your son didn’t have his stats.** In my opinion, the kids who have it much worse are those whose parents have unaffordable EFCs, yet the kids’ stats are not high enough for the BIG merit that some schools offer kids with high stats.</p>

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<p>*This concept has taken me awhile to digest, but you are right here. If the Val’s parents had voluntarily chosen to live exactly like the Sal family did and save all the extra money they made, they probably would have had enough to make HYPSM tuition feasible. In outcome they would have ended up the same. *</p>

<p>Very true in many cases. </p>

<p>However, for people whose incomes have only recently risen, they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to save like that.</p>

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<p>I understand that some think that a middle income family has “so much more in every aspect” but give me a break. People have less many times because of the decisions they make. Case in point: the Sal’s parents took early retirement and now live on a fixed income. Obviously a choice and probably made with their son’s college costs in mind. Sal had car in school, wore nice clothes, etc., etc… Please don’t assume to think that everyone is in the same boat. I know people who legitamately need aid and I know those that “work the system”. Is it fair? No way, but colleges just look at numbers and especially at last years income.</p>

<p>Also, if you think that just because someone is a travel agent then they automatically get to travel the globe then you’re an idiot. They are working class people just like the rest of us and need to save. I’ve known the parents for 12 years since my wife worked with the mom and they have NEVER taken vacation other than Disney one year. Your assumptions are way off</p>

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<p>The system is most unfair on kids with uninvolved parents who refuse to help out with their education. We see them here all the time, don’t we? “My parents refuse to fill out the FAFSA.” “My dad says I’m useless and won’t spend a dime for my college education.” It could be a poor kid whose parents think a college education is “above” him, it could be a (formerly) rich boy whose parents kicked him out when they found out he was gay, it could be someone whose parents just can’t stand to see their kid happy (and yes, I have known some like that!), it could be a million things. But whatever the case, those kids are screwed because of the expectation that the parents will help out . . . and if they won’t, too bad so sad for the kid, they are going to get a level of financial aid that assumes the parent will! That is, if the kid can convince the parents to actually fill out the FAFSA in the first place.</p>

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<p>When we were kids, our moms told us, “Life is not fair. Deal with it.” Today, the societal message rings loud & clear: You can have whatever you want. In fact, you should have whatever you want. Where 50 years ago our parents saved, today far too many people spend every penny they make (and many dollars they haven’t made yet). Because we must have what we deserve, <em>someone</em> needs to make it happen for us. In reality, this just isn’t going to work.</p>

<p>Is financial aid fair? For some, yes. For others, no. But life is not fair. Figure out a way to deal with what “is.” </p>

<p>In no way do I mean to make light of the whole financial aid situation. Believe me, I see it first hand, every single day.</p>

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<p>this thread is both insulting and infuriating.
Let me put it this way, the way tuition+room+board is, my dad’s PRE-TAX income isn’t enough to keep me in college for a YEAR. This is assuming his entire income goes to me going to college …(imposssible much???) We have a family of 6, I have 2 younger sisters, my mom opened her own business and both of my parents are working incredibly hard on it (think 7am -10pm every day, at least) but guess what, economy isn’t great and the business isn’t generating income.
It’s the college’s CHOICE to offer financial aid. If you didn’t get any, you probably don’t need it as much, of course exceptions exist but honestly, if your income is over 100K and you’re complaining, don’t bother. Take a good hard look at you expenditures, my family hasn’t eaten out, gone on vacation, you name it, in YEARS. It’s always not a question of frugality, or laziness.
If the issue is federal aid, honestly? I got about $1500, that’s really going to make a huge difference isn’t it?</p>

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<p>The primary responsibility to pay for college lies with the family…not any school or gov’t.</p>

<p>When money is an issue, the first option should be either starting at a local CC or state school and commuting.</p>

<p>Going away to college is a luxury. Period.</p>

<p>No one should expect that someone else is going to pay for your room and board while you’re at school. I think that expectation has largely caused a lot of this problem. It’s caused too many to “skip over” and not consider their local schools. </p>

<p>If you’re lucky enough to have the stats and get into one of the schools that gives great need-based or merit-based aid, then awesome! </p>

<p>But, if you don’t qualify for n-b aid, or you won’t apply to the schools that give big merit aid (or your stats aren’t high enough), then you have to look for affordable options.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that even if you have a lowish EFC (say $6000), for most kids that still doesn’t mean getting free aid. Most schools do NOT have much or any free institutional grant aid to give away.</p>

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<p>Making college affordable should be a priority in this country. It is important so the united states remains competitive with the rest of the world. The more educated the country the better off we all are. Just my 2 cents.</p>

<p>I don’t think fafsa is fair because it does not take cost of living into account. I can hear everybody say…you chose to live there…not quite. My parents lived here and I just like others end up making a home where your family is. It wasn’t until I was older(thirty) did I realize that I lived in a high cost area. At that point I already had children, and this is where we had jobs. It is very difficult with a family to just move to another state and try to establish yourself. </p>

<p>I have run comparisons using the fafsa formula. Using to different cities, one in a high cost area the other other in a low cost area. I used median household incomes for both cities and average home prices, leaving all else the same. And guess what, the high cost of living family gets far less aid. Total injustice.</p>

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why is the situation different when someone gets into an elite college? I did, I was lucky, they gave me an aid package that made my attendance possible, I was lucky. The way you put things, there’s no way I should be able to attend. I did everything right, I applied and got in. My parents did the best they could, they worked hard and saved. But you know what? It wasn’t enough. According to you, I should have just gone to the local CC. I’m sorry, the elitism is disgusting.</p>

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<p>Even if FAFSA was adjusted to take into acct where you live, it still wouldn’t matter much for most people. Most schools don’t meet need. Period.</p>

<p>For most people, it doesn’t matter if their EFC is $6k, $9k or $12k. At most schools, they’ll just get a student loan and maybe some work study. If they get some merit money, it will be based on stats, not EFC. </p>

<p>For the schools that give the better aid, they typically use CSS Profile. </p>

<p>*I have run comparisons using the fafsa formula. Using to different cities, one in a high cost area the other other in a low cost area. I used median household incomes for both cities and average home prices, leaving all else the same. **And guess what, the high cost of living family gets far less aid. **Total injustice. *</p>

<p>FAFSA doesn’t tell you how much aid you’ll get from any school. However, if you have a very low EFC, it can tell you how much Pell Grant you can get. </p>

<p>Just because one family may end up with a lower EFC, that does not mean mean that they’ll get more aid from their school.</p>

<p>Example… typical state flagship that has a COA of - say - $22k per year.</p>

<p>Student A has an EFC of $6k and a need of $16k.</p>

<p>Student B has an EFC of $8k and a need of $14k.</p>

<p>They could still end up getting the same aid packages…</p>

<p>$5500 in fed loans
$1000 in perkins loan</p>

<h2>$2500 in work-study </h2>

<p>$9000 FA package. And…both students would be gapped.</p>

<p>And, if Student B happened to go to a school with better aid, he could end up getting MORE aid than Student A who is attending a different school.</p>

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<p>*If you’re lucky enough to have the stats and get into one of the schools that gives great need-based or merit-based aid, then awesome</p>

<p>why is the situation different when someone gets into an elite college? I did, I was lucky, they gave me an aid package that made my attendance possible, I was lucky. </p>

<p>The way you put things, there’s no way I should be able to attend. I did everything right, I applied and got in. My parents did the best they could, they worked hard and saved. But you know what? It wasn’t enough. According to you, I should have just gone to the local CC. I’m sorry, the elitism is disgusting.
*</p>

<p>???</p>

<p>Where did I say that you should have gone to a CC instead of accepting a generous offer from an elite school? </p>

<p>Your situation is DIFFERENT because the elite school has it’s OWN money to give you. That isn’t tax-payer money. It’s choice of the school to give it to you. </p>

<p>Are you upset that I said that if a student didn’t get big need-based aid or merit-based aid, then he should go to a CC or local state school? What’s wrong with that? How else would the bills get paid? Who is supposed to pay those bills? Taxpayers? Taxpayers who may be earning LESS than your family???</p>

<p>And, as for elitism…it could be argued that the elitist is the one who thinks he can only be properly educated by going to a top school and looks down his nose at his local schools (because he thinks he’s too good for them).</p>

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<p>I agree – I don’t think taxpayer money should be going to fund college living expenses, at least not for pricey private schools. (I think when my son was a senior at a CSU his Pell Grant was actually more than his tuition… but I’m not talking about that type of situation – the CSU’s have raised their fees anyway, so I don’t think there will be many future kids in my son’s position.). </p>

<p>ALL College-based money is merit aid, whether it is called that or not. It’s just that some colleges have different policies as to how they award their own money. Some have the rational that ALL of their admitted students are super-meritorious, so they used income-based criteria to decide which students to fund. Other schools figure they can use merit money to structure the class. Any school that does not promise to “meet full need” of all of its students is using a merit-based internal formula in order to determine which kids get the generous aid, and which don’t. (By “merit-based” I am including factors other than academics, such as athletic scholarships or anything else that factors into the colleges choice).</p>

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<p>FA is nothing more than income redistribution mostly from families making over 250k to families making between 100-180k. The college FA programs are run by social justice types than are really using a divide and conquer strategy to inflate the cost of college while minimizing the number of families that complain. It’s really a copy of the fight that is going on in congress to keep the lower tax rates for everyone making under 250k. There is just no logical way to argue that familes making 150k(95th %) should get aid but the 98th% should pay full. The cost of college should reflect the value of the education. Right now the influx of gov’t money has allowed the colleges to inflate the cost without any real competition based on price or value.</p>

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<p>We are full pay, sending our D to an Ivy league school. Do I believe that our daughter should have gotten Financial aid? No. It will be a stretch, but we will be able to do it, barring job loss, etc.</p>

<p>I do believe that savvy people do game the system though.The Financial aid process has been an eye opener for me, as I saw families from my community ( a very well to do community of professionals) receive financial aid to the same university as my daughter as they continue to live in newer houses twice the size of mine, and drive around in their late model luxury cars while my husband and I drive our 10-year old cars. Our D’s school does not consider the primary residence to be part of the assets in determining financial aid. So, if we had spent more on a larger house, instead of saving as we did, we could have lived luxuriously and perhaps gotten some financial aid. </p>

<p>But, we are all different…I do not think that I would have been comfortable maxing out on a house. I like to have financial headroom, and this the price I have to pay for peace of mind. </p>

<p>It would be nice if the Ivy league schools eliminated this loophole, so that we are all on a level playing field, and only the truly needy receive Financial aid. I cannot say that I feel great about subsidizing my well-to-do community’s children’s Ivy league educations.</p>

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<p>You aren’t paying for them. Tax money isn’t providing their aid. </p>

<p>Do any of these people have 2 in college?</p>

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<p>The families I am thinking of have one in college, not two. </p>

<p>I do not pretend to understand the financial aid system fully. Private universities probably do not use public money for scholarships, so maybe they do not use our Tax dollars. I find it hard to believe, though, that the exorbitant tuition + room+ board that they charge full pay families does not, in part, cover the students who are receiving financial aid.</p>

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<p>The majority of grants and scholarships come from endowments, and the investment income they generate. These are donations that alumni and other benefactors have contributed for that purpose. </p>

<p>Many colleges claim that even full-pay students are subsidized to some extent. In other words, the standard tuition charges do not cover the full cost of the direct and indirect costs the schools incur in order to provide educational services. I think that’s probably true but does not apply to the other portions of COA like room and board!</p>

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<p>Actually, the cost of room & board, while high, probably reflects the market conditions associated with maintaining student housing & dining halls. Most universities have contracted with catering services which set the rates for various meal plan options. One reason it is so expensive is that a LOT of food goes to waste (remains uneaten at the end of the day) – and there is a also a lot of theft of food. Plus the catering services are under pressure to provide a good variety of food to add variety and meet different dietary needs. The catering services are private companies usually trying to operate at a profit – which is a problem, but not something created by the financial aid system. I doubt that most university housing systems are profitable, though sometimes universities need to lease extra space from private owners, and that might impact costs.</p>

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<p>*I find it hard to believe, though, that the exorbitant tuition + room+ board that they charge full pay families does not, in part, cover the students who are receiving financial aid. *</p>

<p>The cost to educate each student at an elite school COSTS more than what a “full pay” student is charged. I can’t remember the exact figures, but I think the tuition would be about $75k or more, if they charged you the real cost.</p>

<p>So, your payments are not subsidizing those who are on FA. FA comes from endowment money…which is from invested donations. </p>

<p>*The families I am thinking of have one in college, not two.
*</p>

<p>It can also depend on which elite they’re going to. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford give “super aid.” That means that one family that earns $150k and sends their child to Brown will pay a LOT more than another family that makes $150k and sends their child to Harvard.</p>

<p>Also, some elites are committed to not putting loans in packages…so a student would get a bigger grant than another student with the same family finances who is going to a school that does put loans.</p>