Is "fit" contrived?

Parents Forum
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<p>Please don't dismiss my post until you've read it.</p>

<p>Many people on these forums talk about fit when choosing a college. For example, CTMom posts in another thread,</p>

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<p>So for her daughter, "fit"= a college that's liberal, urban, politically active, multi-cultural. But that description fits a lot of colleges. Most colleges lean liberal (except for Brigham Young and Loyola, lol), many colleges are urban, especially state schools, the freedom of time gives many students the opportunity to be politically active, and any decent college worth its salt tries to maintain diversity, even through artificial means (<em>cough</em>, affirmative action, *cough). With those descriptors in mind, wouldn't a lot of colleges "fit"?</p>

<p>In addition, what determines "fit"? I've heard a lot of people post that when they toured through a college, something "clicked" and all of a sudden they wanted to go there. How can you, however, evaluate a college based on a short campus tour + a censored information session that are designed to impress? Even if you stay overnight and sit in on some classes, that time period is still way too short to get to "know" a school and determine your "fit". In fact, the diversity of a school compounds this problem. Calling a college "liberal" is almost always a generalization; there inevitably exists a "College Republicans" club (for example, C4 at Columbia). You will inevitably fit in at least one sector of the school, and a tour is too short to evaluate that.
Finally, some people determine "fit" based on the strength of a major. Most college students, however, change their intended major during their years at college.</p>

<p>In fact, I've read a study (someone posted it here, actually), that most college students end up loving the college they go to. Obviously, not everyone goes to their first-choice college, and I'm sure you have lots of personal stories about that. In the spring of my junior year, my parents and I went to tour the Northeast. When we visited Penn, I thought, "OMFG I have to go to Penn!!!". Then we got to Princeton, Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc. and my reaction at every school was, "OMFG I have to go to _________!". I ultimately ended up at Columbia, my first choice, and although I'm very happy, I'm sure I would have liked any of those other schools.</p>

<p>I'm definitely not saying that all schools are the same, or that "fit" is irrelevant. Instead of evaluating college choice based solely on "fit", however, I propose that we undergo a more rational analysis. For some families, cost is a factor, and some schools offer better merit aid and/or financial aid than do others. For others, academic strength is important, and rankings are an important, although not all-important, guide.</p>

<p>Comments?</p>

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<p>Well, one of my daughter's main criteria for "fit" is that the campus average outdoor temperature in January cannot be below 35 degrees. And that is very rational!!!</p>

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<p>fit is in the eye of the beholder... </p>

<p>A good will mean different things to different people. So I think you've hit on many possible "fits" for different people.</p>

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<p>Op</p>

<p>Fit is all about any of that-and anything else. My son did great research and seems to have come up with a great fit. I wish you equal happiness.</p>

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<p>"Even if you stay overnight and sit in on some classes, that time period is still way too short to get to "know" a school and determine your "fit". "
I think you will find a lot of disagreement with this statement. Staying overnight[ or for 2 nights] is one of the best ways to get a "gut feel" for the kind of students you are likely to encounter at the colleges throughout the year. Lot's of colleges have a "feel"- Chicago is very intellectual and intense, Stanford is "very laid back", but full of smart students, UCBerkeley is very competative in feel, etc..
And by the way, the colleges you visited when you where a Jr have a lot more in common with each other as far as "fit" is concerned, because the presence of lots of very smart students definitely contributes to how a school "feels". So yes, you probably would have been happy at any of them. There are thousands of colleges in the US that don't have the same "feel" as HYPSC.
"Instead of evaluating college choice based solely on "fit".
I don't think very many students/ parents that do this. There are multiple factors that ultimately determine "fit", which include financial considerations, academic strenght, distance from home, etc.</p>

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<p>Yes, many colleges can "fit" a particular kid. That's why so many can be happy at their (initially) second, third or fourth choice school. And if a particular list is well-crafted, that should be the likely result. And those who are incorrect try to transfer.</p>

<p>You say that a visit or an overnight is not sufficient to determine fit. But have you ever walked into a room and felt uncomfortable or tense? Or felt welcomed? That's the gut feeling that people are talking about when they talk about something "clicking".</p>

<p>My d knew, on the basis of the overnights she did to the schools that accepted her, where she was most comfortable, where the students felt "more like her", where she wanted to go. Does that mean that she wouldn't have been happy at the other schools? No, but she took the one that she thought would make her happiest. She's been very happy.</p>

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<p>"Even if you stay overnight and sit in on some classes, that time period is still way too short to get to "know" a school and determine your "fit". "
Ha ha!
You haven't met my daughter.
I would take her clothes shopping & she would make a 40 second loop through the store* nope, nothing here*</p>

<p>We even make emotional decisions on where to live, certainly a larger investment of money and time than a college.
Why else would there be books on curbside appeal & industries set up around "staging"?</p>

<p>When we looked at the brochures of Reed, she was interested, but staying overnight, even in rainy November, gave her enough information that it was her first choice school.
She didn't refuse to get out of the car at any schools, but I have heard of kids that did that.
I also haven't heard of any who were forced to get out and later loved the school.
I think you can learn a lot from just walking around, not necessarily the info session- I just use those to orient myself, but while we might not be able to put the information we are gathering into words, we can have enough information to decide if we could feel comfortable there.</p>

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<p>I agree almost completely with what you wrote. But recognize: the differences among Penn, Princeton, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, and MIT are not exactly huge. If you are talking about that set of schools, "fit" is something of a silly concept (except, perhaps, for people who could never feel comfortable on an urban campus). You were only looking at schools that fit the same people.</p>

<p>Size matters. Location matters. The structure of social life matters (residential vs. commuter, Greeks vs. non, big-time athletics, co-educational vs. single sex). The intellectual atmosphere (or lack thereof) matters. Diversity (or lack thereof) -- racial, cultural, political, class -- may matter. Having other students like you there matters. Offering programs in areas you want to study matters. There ARE real differences among colleges in those regards. To that extent, fit is a real concept.</p>

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<p>Not so sure of that "happy wherever they end up" statistic. Hundreds of thousands of students transfer every year--those are the ones who dislike it enough to make the move. My D and I both transfered--we decidedly did not "fit" at our first schools, and wholeheartedly did at our second. There's lots of schools each student could be happy at, and a good list will encompass some of those at different levels, but there are many, many more where each student would be swimming upstream when it's not necessary to.</p>

<p>If one is fortunate enough to have a choice, why not choose "urban, liberal, etc" if that's what you want? There are a number of great colleges that fit that description, and many more that absolutely don't. It would make fairly common sense to concentrate on the former.</p>

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<p>JHS--with all my S's ups and downs, I still can't imagine him at any of your list except Columbia (possibly Yale). Not sure that it was the perfect place for him, but far more likely than any of the others. Its urban independent-ness was what he was looking for. All the others on the list seem far too enthusiastic and gosh-golly-join-things. Woulda driven him up a tree. (Not a knock, some of them sound like paradise on earth to me--just saying that any one student might perceive real differences--that's what fit is all about.)</p>

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<p>I hear you and agree there is a range of colleges at which any particular student would be happy.</p>

<p>BUT when my daughter visited three schools after getting acceptances, one school just resonated way more than the others. She had liked seven places enough to apply to them, but when push came to shove, she only wanted to visit 3 of the 6 that admitted her (with one of the six excluded because of poor financial aid) and those visits really clarified to her where she would feel comfortable. It turns out she does in fact love it there.</p>

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<p>I have had 4 go through this. Fit was the final arbiter in a good choice. Standing and hanging around on the campus and saying yes, I could belong here is a gut reaction. We took all back to get a thorough review and "gut check" before they made thier final decision. That was after all the the other criteria were met and previous visits conducted, talking to other students, and research. It's not necessarily a first impression, although we have eliminated some immediately on the first impression of fit. If it doesn't feel right, it is a waste of time to pursue.</p>

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<p>I believe fit is very real. If you travel at all or travel on business you must have been somewhere where you thought "i could live here" or "I can't stand this place" --that is a real emotional aspect of fit. Have you never been in a group discussion where you just felt like everyone else was on a different wave length? That is fit. Do you choose to live in a large urban city or do you find yourself loving and living in a rural area where the closet neighbor is acres or miles away. That is fit. Some people thrive in small, intimate social settings, others thrive on large events where there are lots of people that they might now know. That is fit. All these situations have correlations to a college "community". Agree that kids will "fit" at any number of colleges but also agree that any kid could also "not fit" and be quite miserable regardless of how the college "seems" to match the credentials. There are those rare personality types that can be just happy no matter where they are or what company they work for. The fit that is often referred to on these boards is more about the person....not the stats. I had a son who did refuse to get out of the car at two very large universities in big cities. He's happy at a clam at a small, rural school. Fotunately, for the vast majority of students there are all kinds and varieties of colleges and universities so "fit" can be a factor. Also, I can't imagine any family where emotional fit is only one of the factors along with financial fit, academic fit. EC fit and location. Obviously all of these factors influence what percentage of kids start as freshman and successfully matriculate from the same school.</p>

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<p>And yet you ignored the part of my post where I wrote that "fit" cannot be determined in a matter of hours or even minutes. The "gut feeling" you describe can be influenced by the tour guide, the informational speaker, or even the individual students you meet, and yet not even represent the school fairly. Anecdotes, though helpful, aren't evidence. Next time, trying refuting instead of recounting endless personal experiences.</p>

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<p>My, my touchy are we? I just happen to disagree with you. I also happen to be in HR and we make gut decisions every day on potential employees who we think will fit and those candidates are making gut fit decisions on us. Some work, some don't....that's fit. Fortunately the majority of "fit" decisions work out. One of the benefits of being old is that not all things are quantitative. Some are qualitative. Sorry for another enless personal perspective.</p>

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Anecdotes, though helpful, aren't evidence. Next time, trying refuting instead of recounting endless personal experiences.

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<p>If you're asking for "fit" to be quantified in some way, I doubt you'll ever hear a satisfactory answer. "Fit", by definition, is very personal and unquantifiable...it's can be that "you know it when you feel it" moment that many students experience. Despite that, I think most students and parents are rational enough to realize that The Moment could be duplicated at any number of campuses, but there are only so many applications one wants to send out.</p>

<p>I say this as the parent of a student who never experienced The Moment. I never expected her to; she's as pragmatic as she is idealistic, and her college search was characterized by finding the school that she could make work for her (as opposed to the school that would make her work for it) without breaking the bank. When she received the FA package from her marginally-#1 school, she found we had been gapped. She immediately wrote a "thanks, but no thanks" note, and when I asked her if she wanted me to re-crunch our numbers to see if we could make it work, she replied, "Nope...it was only my #1 if we could afford it." Yes, it's another anecdote, slightly different than others mentioned, but it illustrates how "fit" can mean so many different things.</p>

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<p>Some aspects of fit CAN be determined in minutes. It can take less than an hour to figure out the gross parameters of fit: large versus small, urban versus suburban versus rural, LAC versus state U, even preppy versus artsy. Come on. Didn't you visit ANY schools that just screamed "wrong" to you?</p>

<p>Gut feeling IS part of fit. Have to agree with JHS - the schools you visited were all very similar, so of course they all seemed to fit you. I know that my own D would be miserable at a small rural LAC, even though that would be MY perfect fit. We couldn't even get her out of the car at some schools, and that was before we met any tourguides, students, or admissions people.</p>

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And yet you ignored the part of my post where I wrote that "fit" cannot be determined in a matter of hours or even minutes

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Unfortunately, very few people, if any, have the luxury of an unlimited amount of time to determine fit. At some point, one has to make the decision, "Yes, I would enjoy going to school here," or, "No, I cannot see myself spending four years at this place." If someone can make that decision in a few hours, who are you to judge?</p>

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<p>well, a day or two might not be enough time to make a fully informed decision, but what's your alternative? surely not visiting at all wouldn't help people make a better choice.</p>

<p>I do generally agree with your premise though--most students, so long as they go in with a good attitude (not "I can't believe I'm here at my 3rd choice school--the people are dumb here and this sucks") could be happy at many different colleges.</p>

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<p>Which is why I'm saying that "fit" is contrived (reread the thread title). </p>

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At some point, one has to make the decision, "Yes, I would enjoy going to school here," or, "No, I cannot see myself spending four years at this place." If someone can make that judgement in a few hours, who are you to judge?

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<p>In your first sentence you implicitly conceded that true "fit", if it exists, does take time to determine. So I'm rationally judging that perceived "fit" based on only a few hours is contrived and can easily be duplicated at other schools, as mezzomom wisely pointed out. Try again. I know you will.</p>