Is graduate school worth it for those that don't want to teach?

Graduate School
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<p>Personally, I could imagine myself being a professor someday somewhere. Also personally, I think I'd be a terrible teacher and would like to avoid that route. However, I do have a strong interest in mathematics, but I am trying to also be mindful of what kind of other financial opportunities are out there. Just so you know, I'm not doing pure math but applied. I was thinking about picking up a minor in physics. My plans are kind of all over the place because on one hand I want to apply to graduate school to earn a PhD. On the other, I want to go to law school to become a patent lawyer because I feel that it would be a good fit for me in terms of background and finances. If I had another hand, I am thinking of applying to a few master's programs for engineering. Also, I wouldn't mind getting a master's in math either.</p>

<p>My ultimate goals are to attend either UCLA or UC Berkeley for law, PhD, or a master's. Those are my top two selections. I'm also considering schools on the east coast as well because of my girlfriend's preference to attend graduate schools over there (cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, etc). </p>

<p>Does anyone know how difficult it would be to get a Master's at MIT? I mean, admissions wise? </p>

<p>I'd like to keep as many offers on the table as possible with the current economic climate. My parents are going to be leaving the country in the next few years and I won't have any family to turn to in the United States if I don't land a job or some opportunity with schools. Unfortunately, my girlfriend (very likely will end up my wife) does not think that a salary in the 60K range is acceptable if we plan to buy a house, car, and have 2+ kids.</p>

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In mathematics? Extremely difficult. Step 1: convince them to offer a Master’s degree in applied math. Currently they only have a PhD program. When I went to the Open House for admitted (pure and applied) math PhD students, everyone in the room had their undergraduate degree from a top 20 university and had taken 1-2 year’s worth of graduate courses as an undergraduate; most had published papers and many had excelled in math competitions as well. (The graduate director himself is a 4-times Putnam fellow and thinks that competition results are a good indicator of a student’s potential.)</p>

<p>Most of their Master’s programs in engineering say that their curriculum builds up on undergraduate engineering training. If your undergraduate degree is not in engineering, you probably wouldn’t be a good candidate for admission. The only exception appear to be engineering specialties that are inherently interdisciplinary (such as systems engineering or civil engineering).</p>

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<p>“Could imagine yourself” being a professor is not really motivation enough to go for it. You have to really want it AND be really passionate about a particular area of study. If you aren’t yet sure what you want to do, just go find a job and work for a few years while you figure it out.</p>

<p>You don’t select schools and then say you will apply to any of their programs there; you must select programs that are the best research fit for you. For your applied mathematics program, UCLA or UC Berkeley may not be the best place for you. The more geographically open you are as a PhD applicant, the better you will fare. And if you are worried about finances, then academia is probably not for you. Professors do not make much money.</p>

<p>You should only get a research degree (PhD) if you are passionate about a particular area of mathematics research and want to lead research teams (either as a professor or in industry).</p>

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<p>juillet, your post demonstrates a very narrow view of academia. Sure, if you are passionate about something very specific, move across the world to attend the graduate program best for that particular specialty. But that’s really not the only way of doing things. </p>

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I’ve met several PhD students in Philadelphia who were tied down with a house and family. When they decided to go back to school, they chose from a full range of programs at a small number of institutions.</p>

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That’s the first time I’ve heard that one. Most beginning PhD students in mathematics do not have a strong preference for some area of math over another. Nor do research mathematicians lead “research teams.” Of course they have collaborators but everyone is doing their own work. (Unlike lab scientists, mathematicians are not constrained by lab space or lab funding.) </p>

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Last time I checked, the national median income of a full-time worker was $40,000/year. My professors seem to make significantly more than that.</p>

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<p>I have seen some statistics about the percentage of phd students who were initially admitted into phd programs, and eventually graduated with a phd degree, and it is a little bit over 50%, the rest of the students left with a master degree instead. Correct me if I am wrong.</p>

<p>My question is did these people do this intentionally? What I am saying is that did they know they were most likely to leave with a master degree when they applied for a phd program? Or their objectives were to finish with phd but gave it up after the first 2 years, assuming the master degree can be obtained in 2 years. </p>

<p>I am asking this because I am now studying for GRE and planning to start my application progress for phd program in fall’13. I intend to finish with a phd degree but I am not fully certain, however I still intend to give it a try since I am interested in what I am studying and I always have the urge to learn more in this field!</p>

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<p>You are correct that the attrition rate in graduate school is high especially relative to the rates in professional schools. At my undergrad institution, it was about 50-60% with some years faring better than others. From what I saw at my program, I highly doubt anyone entered the PhD program with the intention of dropping out with a Masters… A lot of people just cracked under the stress and uncertainty that comes with graduate school. I have heard about people who choose to apply to PhD programs to fully fund their Master’s but never have met anyone who has (or who would be willing to tell you that that is their intention).</p>

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<p>I have not personally met a beginning PhD students who was determined to drop out with a Master’s degree. I have however met many beginning PhD students who were somewhat ambivalent about an academic career and open to leaving the PhD program early under favorable circumstances. </p>

<p>I’d also like to mention that completion rates as well as reasons for quitting the PhD seem to vary a lot between places. </p>

<p>My own PhD program has a 6-year completion rate above 90%. I know a program with completion rates below 40% whose main problem seems to be funding. Their stipends are so low that students have to work a second job to support themselves; some students burn out from the stress, and some realize that they actually like their second job better than their academic work. At another program I visited, students generally felt ignored by their adviser (and faculty openly admitted to having no idea what their students were up to); some students struggled to stay motivated with no one holding them accountable and quit the PhD for that reason. Yet another program has high attrition rates because half of their students fail their qualifying exams. The program over-enrolls on purpose with the intention of keeping only the stronger students around.</p>

<p>The best advice I can give you is to treat each PhD program as unique. Research the atmosphere at each. If a program has a high attrition rate, find out why.</p>

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<p>I know one person who is enrolling in a phd program this fall with the intention of leaving with a masters, however, I’d say their situation is a little unique, because they never applied to phd programs in the first place, only masters. I guess they were such a strong candidate that they happened to be admitted to phd programs at a few schools that they applied to masters programs for.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the replies guys, although this is not my thread haha. But I was having the same thoughts as the thread opener so I posted my concern here. </p>

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Yea if that was my intention I probably wouldn’t tell anyone except for my family or close friends. But I was wondering if that is considered to be a bad thing to do? I mean to attend a phd program, knowing that you would most likely leave with a master degree. Since phd programs admit and fund students, expecting they would be working in the lab for some amount of years, until they accomplish their phd degrees. </p>

<p>My undergraduate research adviser actually suggested and gave me this idea if I was ever gonna go for a master degree haha. But somehow I feel that it is not a right/ethic thing to do and it feels like a form of betrayal to me. I was told by him that it generally wouldn’t hurt my qualifications if I left with a master degree and went looking for a job. </p>

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Since you mentioned about faculty, how would/did you evaluate a particular faculty/your adviser? Somehow I feel that choosing schools is not as complex as choosing/evaluating faculties. Ranking of schools shows that where a particular school stands in that field, and I know the ranking is not always and exactly accurate but I would able to have an idea of how good that school is, and from that I would be able to come out with a list of schools that fit me. And I believe there is no ranking or whatsoever on faculties, and apparently they would never say anything negative about themselves on their lab website. </p>

<p>And just to be clear again, I am not intending to leave with a master degree (provided if I got into a phd program, which I am really worried right now), but I am not denying the possibilities. I am asking all these questions because I am having the same concerns as CalDud, I don’t hope to see myself to be teaching in the future and would like to avoid that route, but on the other hand I would very much like to get admitted into a phd program simply because of my interest in chemistry (my undergraduate major), and it is likely to be fully funded with stipend because there is no way I can afford to pay myself for a master degree.</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post and I apologize again if there were any grammar errors that made it hard to read (english is not my first language).</p>

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Primarily by talking to their students. You will also get a big hint by talking to the person themselves and maybe their collaborators, if that’s an option. If your own professors know a potential adviser, don’t be afraid to ask them if they think that Professor X would make a good adviser. If they have a strong opinion, they’ll probably tell you.</p>

<p>After a few visits, I realized that it’s a good strategy to talk to a professor’s students before I talk to the professor. That way I was warned of people’s peculiarities and already had a list of points to follow up on. (For example, there was the professor whose students felt like they were being ignored. She seemed like a very warm and caring person. I couldn’t imagine that she would neglect her graduate students until I asked her what projects her graduate students were working on. She didn’t know. She also didn’t know if her two students who were graduating the following month had jobs. That confirmed to me that the students weren’t just exaggerating.)</p>

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<p>In mathematics, there are programs which are strong in a variety of disciplines, and in fact, it’s a negative rather than positive to be overly specific as to your research tastes, at least in terms of admissions outcome - if you seem like you’re not going to be enthusiastic about most of the school’s offerings, they’re going to have a hard time admitting you even if you’re strong enough.</p>

<p>It’s important to be able to articulate potential things you’d like to do, but it’s also important not to throw away options, unless you really would be unhappy researching almost anything but the things you say you want to work on for certain (if you choose to state such a thing). </p>

<p>I think if you’re a mathematics researcher at a university, you’ll likely have to teach. However, an applied mathematics PhD sounds like something that could lead you to all sorts of careers outside a university.</p>

<p>The Master’s degree in mathematics might be less in fashion because applying significant mathematics beyond what a strong undergraduate major in mathematics would provide probably demand more than the additional coursework provided by Master’s degrees, and in the US, the PhD programs make sure you have thorough grounding in basics before you proceed to candidacy. Those who seek a master’s degree in an applied mathematical field might choose to study a Financial Mathematics master’s degree program or something of the sort that has value as a nice package that has one specialize further in a short period of time.</p>

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<p>Probably not an overly specific area that excludes most research, to the extent that they may be pretty ambivalent about choice of adviser and precise goals, though I’d think it’s common to prefer one general area over another. That said, your point was probably that this won’t exclude a ton of schools, since a generally strong program should have strong research in various general areas, even if completely lacking work in a very narrow sub-area.</p>

<p>@OP, your varied graduate/professional school and career options are probably best sorted after a bit more relevant coursework. With law school, you probably can have a variety of backgrounds, and some mathematics students do really well in the process. You have to really try to see what things might end up like.
Juillet’s concern regarding geographic flexibility makes sense if you’re thinking long term about academia - it’s far from the ideal career choice if you want to settle down early, or at least I’m not optimistic and would be happy if someone would convince otherwise. Unfortunately, I am totally uninformed about careers after law school.</p>

<p>You can keep your learning somewhat all over the place if it pleases you, but I suspect when you map out what a future career in X or Y actually entails, you might be a bit less confused. </p>

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<p>Your professors may also be the more fortunate of the lot :slight_smile: we both know there’s often a long process before getting there, and getting there can be extremely far from a certainty depending on the situation…</p>

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<p>Also OP, I think the UChicago financial mathematics program spoke of offering a program that is flexible in terms of how long you take to complete it (there being an option to enroll part-time). That may or may not appeal to you, given it’s in your preferred geographic locations, it exercises knowledge of mathematics, and could lead to a nice career, plus offer flexibility in terms of how you spend your time.</p>

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All good points. My point was that tenured professors seem to have a comfortable middle class income. They won’t get rich, but they are not poor either. Research professors “not making much money” is not quite the same as “dishwashers not making much money.” Plus, like you said, applied mathematicians have options in industry. The OP won’t be stuck in a part-time adjunct teaching position, which is more likely to happen to professors in the humanities. </p>

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My point was that beginning math graduate students are not expected to have specific research interests. Unlike engineers, for example, who might be admitted to a specific lab. In some disciplines the advice, “You should only apply to PhD programs after you have very specific research interests.” makes sense. Math is not one of those disciplines.</p>

<p>And I don’t want to take this thread too far off topic, but…</p>

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In the better departments, yes. However, less selective departments have many PhD students who start by retaking undergraduate analysis and algebra courses. In my experience, those students actually don’t know which direction of math they’ll eventually pursue.</p>

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<p>That’s very true about other technical fields - my impression is the answer to “should I contact professors about researching with them” is at least a little more affirmative in fields like CS or engineering than, say, pure mathematics, where it’s doubtful whether the program will take your stated interests extremely seriously or not, and where the pressures to publish as an undergraduate seem lower. In mathematics, one might contact the professors for more modest aims like asking “are you taking students” and maybe finding out about their styles as advisers (or as you said, talking to other graduate students).</p>

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<p>So, mathboy98, would you say pursuing a master’s degree in math wouldn’t be worth it (generally)? </p>

<p>The UoChicago thing does appeal to me. </p>

<p>Geographic location would be important to me for the long-term. Most of the schools I’ve picked are in those very cities or states that we’d wish to settle down at. I guess I’m just in that kind of mind frame where I’m young and I’d really and passionately want to make a contribution to mathematics. It’s just one of those subjects I’m absolutely hooked on, but I don’t really want to have it lingering in the back of my mind of what I should’ve done at such and such age. Then again, I know that patent law is booming and should I get into a good program and make a career for myself afterwards I would be able to take care of my personal debts and future debt that comes with marrying my girlfriend and having children, house, car, etc. </p>

<p>I picked the applied math major because I knew I’d have a good chance at getting a job and it allows me to pursue many different areas such as economics, computer science, physics, statistics, etc. I also picked it cause my college has the necessary connections with industry to set me up as they’re a good in-state favorite for employers. Honestly, I wish I could do both, but I feel like the best time to do mathematics is when you’re young (although a lot of older mathematicians have proved amazing things). </p>

<p>I’d say that I would teach if I have to, but I have no plans to stay at a university doing it for the rest of my life. I want to make a decent living and not necessarily have to stay tied down to one spot (unless I live in California, I guess). </p>

<p>Do you guys think it’s generally easier for someone applying for a PhD in applied mathematics to get accepted versus the pure mathematics applicant? I haven’t found a lot of admission statistics that I’m searching for. I’m also wondering which schools do you think place a heavy emphasis on upper-divison coursework? I remember hearing something about Berkeley with this but not really any others. I should probably research this myself or talk to a career counselor, but I wonder how much applied mathematicians can make in industry. All I know is I’m very open at the moment to all the options out there and I’m not really sure about master degree programs since I see applicants sometimes apply with a master’s degree to a different university and I wonder how much they weight that versus the typical student coming straight from undergrad.</p>

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The top programs (which it sounds are the ones you are interested in) will be super-competitive both for pure and applied math. MIT had joint admission events for the pure and applied math programs. The admitted students seemed equally accomplished (in different ways, of course).</p>

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All of them! It’s not the only important element of your education (your letters of recommendation are crucially important as well), but you can bet that all graduate math programs will pay a lot of attention to your upper-division math coursework.</p>

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<p>“Young” is relative - certainly, mathematicians are generally less likely to prove their most ground-breaking theorems at age 60. However, it often takes (at least in pure mathematics) years and years of getting acquainted with a research specialty before a researcher’s best work may actually come forth. So, it’s really a question of what aspect of applied mathematics you want to contribute to. It sounds like if you really don’t want to teach, you might not like the university professorship lifestyle. Then again, a lot of these decisions needn’t be made until you’re actually done with the PhD, assuming you have other options (that is, besides work at a university). </p>

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<p>Mathematical sophistication in the applied sense can win you very nice careers - I think if you strictly want to go where the money is, finance might be your best bet though. There’s a lot of other cool stuff you can do with applied math, though, which can lead to nice careers.</p>

<p>If your target is making an original contribution to mathematics, a master’s degree in mathematics is not the ideal option, at least as far as I can tell. Generally PhD programs in the US are looking for applicants with strong foundations so that they can dust off cobwebs and really iron their foundations out at the start of the program, plus begin doing things relevant to what they’d specialize in. So the master’s program is in a sense already built in, and further, having a master’s degree will not really speed up the initial requirements of the PhD (however, having strong foundations, however it is you acquired those, will). </p>

<p>If by “make an original contribution to mathematics” you mean publishing papers for a living, it seems hard to avoid the academic career or some such approximation (there are definitely places you can primarily research for a living, at least in mathematical fields, though I’m unfortunately unfamiliar with mathematical research that happens outside of universities), and further, you probably won’t be able to just do this initially “while you’re young” and leave - it’ll take a lot of time and effort just to get the foundations down, and then a bunch to navigate the research literature enough to make an interesting contribution (except in basically a negligible number of cases). </p>

<p>A master’s degree in applied mathematics could be useful for you personally if you want to explore further, and actually develop a specialty within mathematics … which may then lead you either to careers within or outside of academia. To be clear, all I meant by the above is that if your target is ultimately original contributions, apply to the PhD programs promptly once you feel you’re prepared.</p>

<p>And yes, all graduate programs in mathematics are primarily interested in your upper level coursework in mathematics (and much less in work done in non-mathematical disciplines). A pure mathematics program, I’d imagine, would take the foundational mathematics courses more seriously than, say, a class on electrodynamics, even if that course is in a sense mathematical. Even in applied mathematics, I’m pretty sure a solid grounding in at least some of the foundational pure mathematics courses is essential - this is probably tailored depending on what kind of applied mathematics you’re going to do.</p>

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<p>OP, you might also join SIAM. It is free or very inexpensive if your university has a chapter. I think it will give you lots of ideas about types of positions applied math majors get.</p>

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<p>juillet, your post demonstrates a very narrow view of academia. Sure, if you are passionate about something very specific, move across the world to attend the graduate program best for that particular specialty. But that’s really not the only way of doing things.</p>

<p>It demonstrates a very realistic, current way of doing things. Of course it’s not the only way, but it is the best way, and the way that has the largest chance of getting you an academic job in the future. I know a few people who were tied down because of house and family, too, when they applied for a PhD. Everyone has to make choices that are right for them. Some choose to be less competitive for future jobs because of those reasons - and when you select programs based on geographic location instead of opening yourself up to the best programs across the nation, that’s essentially what you are doing, unless you are in a high-demand faculty field. But how are they going to compete in a national search? Some choose to move their families, and some will decide they never want to move. That’s ok, but most of those people realize that they will not be as competitive as someone willing to go anywhere. It makes even less sense to limit yourself if you don’t have children and a house somewhere.</p>

<p>I used science-based language in my post (which was wrong and doesn’t broadly apply to math) but the point is, you don’t go into getting a PhD because you want to be a lawyer, or because you don’t know what to do next, or because you want to use math in applied jobs or even simply because you like math. You get a PhD because you are passionate about math and want to do mathematics research as a career (even if you aren’t leading a team). If you aren’t sure you want to do math research, then a PhD is not really worth it until you ARE sure.</p>

<p>Last time I checked, the national median income of a full-time worker was $40,000/year. My professors seem to make significantly more than that.</p>

<p>That is because they are tenured and probably more advanced in their careers. First of all, median individual income is actually closer to $32,000. Median <em>household</em> income is $45,000. Secondly, median income in this case is misleading because it’s the median income of everyone, from high school dropouts to college grads to professional degree holders. The median individual income for doctoral degree holders is $70,853. But most importantly, when I said “not much money” I meant in comparison to other professional jobs, especially ones that require training as long as PhD work, and in response to the term “financial opportunities” used by the OP. If your other choice is patent lawyer, I think it is worth mentioning that professors rarely get rich and are sometimes struggling to stay in the middle class.</p>

<p>Let’s also not forget that a substantial portion of professors are actually adjuncts, who are often stringing together a full load of classes for $2-5K per class. Even if you are on the high end and teach 6 classes a year, that’s $30K with no benefits and no office.</p>

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<p>I think perhaps relevant to the discussion are the following three lines -</p>

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<p>These are somewhat at odds. In my long posts, it may get lost that a primary confusion on how to advise here is that the typical route to making original contributions in mathematics is getting a PhD, even if your contributions will be made outside of university. </p>

<p>While you may be able to get accepted to NYU, Northwestern, UCLA, UCB, or some such school on that list of geographic locations, it’s much less predictable (if you continue in academia) where you will end up after that. Getting accepted to those schools is also no joke and no certainty - it’s a matter of a lot of things falling into place, after you develop a great profile. I would not link geographic stability with the career associated with publishing mathematics research.</p>

<p>That said, an applied mathematics PhD, depending on his or her skillset, can be extremely valuable outside academia, and one may shoot for careers with a little more certainty. If finance appeals, there’s a good chance you’ll end up in NY, which was on your list. Other than that, I can’t think of good ways to make sure you end up in one of those locations. Main thing is to go for a career that doesn’t seem highly likely to push you elsewhere.</p>

<p>You can talk to me, b@r!um or others about what the mathematics track is like career-wise, but I strongly suggest you also talk to someone who would actually know about what actually going into the legal profession (NOT just going to law school) entails. A lot of people go to law school not knowing what they really want. It’s a lot better if you don’t have regrets halfway through. You sound like someone who has interest in different areas, but might be much more rigid when it comes to actually selecting a career, particularly because that involves constraints beyond what your work actually involves. I think you’ll actually check off a lot of these options once you get a good idea what the careers are like.</p>