<p>I've heard (from the old message boards) that MIT has a quota for Canadian students. (8 freshman a year) :( Can anybody confirm this, or is it just speculation?
I heard that it is "easier" for girls to gain admission into MIT (30% admit rate vs. 10% admit rate) but if I am applying as a Canadian student, will this "advantage" still apply to me? Or will being an international applicant be a whole other ball game in which they dont consider gender at all?
Thanks for your help! :)</p>
<p>I don't think quotas are legal. If they do have a quota, it would definitely NOT be set at exactly 8 students a year - that would be far too obvious. It is always more difficult for international students to gain admission, regardless of race, sex, or nationality. I can't imagine MIT willing to accept more than 5% of its student body as international. And on the issue of women vs. men...</p>
<p>First of all, it is not 30% acceptance rate vs. 10%... that's exaggerated. I think it's just about double. I do believe, statistically (by percentile obviously), it is easier for women to get into MIT, however, by no means is the actual caliber of admitted/matriculating women students ANY less than that of the men. In addition, the general qualifications of the women applicant pool will be expected to be greater than those of the men. Every guy who's half interested in science/math aspires to attend MIT (trust me, I know many), whereas as a whole, girls are turned away from engineering and the hard sciences and only those who are very capable and very serious about studying such material apply to the school (I don't think I have seen a single female applicant on this board who would NOT be very strong in any Yale/Harvard/Princeton application pool). This issue has been discussed frequently around the time of application and it seems to me that, if women really DID have such a huge advantage at one of the best schools in the world, more (not as qualified female students) would apply just for the likelihood of getting in, and it would eventually even out. This has not been the case so obviously it is not that great of any advantage for women. </p>
<p>You should read through the bottom half or so of this thread on matt's blog:</p>
<p>Oh, and I just found something Matt posted on the issue:</p>
<p>Let me briefly address the topic of the qualifications of women at MIT. Women at MIT have a higher graduation rate than men at MIT. Women at MIT graduate with higher GPAs. Women at MIT run a majority of the student activities. We have no affirmative action in admissions of women at MIT -- the women we admit to MIT stand out on their own. </p>
<p>Let me also touch briefly on the other topic you raised, admissions of Asian students. Asian Americans are 26% of MIT students, 23% of MIT applicants, and 4% of the US population. The Asian American community at MIT is vibrant and strong, as is the pool of Asian Americans from which we receive applications. </p>
<p>We were only able to admit 13% of applicants during early action. Many very strongly qualified applicants were deferred. We receive more qualified applications than we can possibly admit. But when I look at the strength and the success of the MIT community, I know that we are doing a good job with admissions.</p>
<p>Wow, thanks for the info. It was extremely helpful :)</p>
<p>no problem :)</p>
<p>I believe I can count all of the Canadians in the Class of '08 on one hand. I've met three of them...we call them by number. (Canadian #1, etc.) Are you from Canada, spiritedaway?</p>
<p>Don't cover all this stuff up by some PR campaign on some blog. Of course it's easier for girls to get into MIT and of course it's harder for Asian-Americans to get into MIT. Admissions people always spew some lies about how the women applicant pool is stronger than the male one, and therefore they accept twice as many females as males. You can't possibly buy into that crap. MIT and Caltech both have nearly the same type of appliant pool---that is the hard-core science/engineering people. You know the only difference between MIT and Caltech admissions? Caltech doesn't have as strong affirmative action tendencies whatsover and is almost completely merit based. </p>
<p>Guess who has more males and more Asian-Americans? Yup, Caltech. Caltech has 66% males and 34% women. MIT has 55 %men and 45% women. That's a whopping 11% difference. Whereas Caltech has 38 % Asian Americans, MIT has 28 % Asian-Americans. That's a whopping 10% difference. </p>
<p>Now, that doesn't mean I am against affirmative action. In fact I think it's a lot better to have an equal girl-guy ratio than to have a nerdy sausage-fest. But don't try to cover that up with a PR campaign.</p>
<p>i won't say that gender isn't a factor in admissions b/c i'm sure there is some of that involved, but not as much as the stats seem to say. the female applicant pool is a lot smaller and has fewer "borderline" (read: weaker) applicants. i know that, at least for my school, the girls applying to MIT are more serious about math/science than guys: a lot of guys apply cuz it gets mentioned in the same breath as HYPS by asian parents (and there are a LOT of those at my school) but i don't know any girls who are applying to MIT just for prestige.</p>
<p>also, rooster: if you use stats to argue your case, you should at least present them in a way that reflects the discrepancy in percentage of male/female applicants: caltech is 77-23, MIT is 72-28 (i'm using the common data set 02-03). which does decrease your 11% rather dramatically (though not to 0, i'll admit)</p>
<p>Really? Because all the girls I have seen who applied to both MIT and Caltech early action got into both. </p>
<p>EDIT: Oh, AND I also know people who were accepted into Caltech but not mit (some of them girls as well). Sure, caltech may have more males and more asians, but MIT admission is much less numbers-based than Caltech and much more personality(interview)/thought(essays)/potential(everything) - based. Now, if you consider the latter qualities not a part of "merit", then, sure, Caltech looks more at "merit".</p>
<p>that reply was to rooster.</p>
<p>I got to a pre-engineering high school and everyone who applies to MIT (male and female alike) are hardcore math/sci/tech people. The admittance rate for men is 15, for women its 30. That is about double, and I think it's really stretching it to say that the female applicant pool is stronger. You have no way of knowing that. I'd say it's highly unlikely. More men are interested in engineering than women. That's just a fact, whether you want to accept it or not. </p>
<p>-Laura</p>
<p>The admissions process is really a lot less black and white than people seem to believe.</p>
<p>It's easier to stand out in an applicant pool of women simply because, you're right, not many are interested in engineering. You attend a pre-engineering high school, which is probably made up of men to a vast majority, and therefore all the women stand out naturally because of their gender. The fact that a woman attends an engineering-anything is enough to raise eyebrows here and there. However, from what I have seen, girls applying from public high schools without an engineering background don't have it as easy as people here tend to believe. I do see many well-qualified women deferred/rejected by MIT (some incidentally accepted into Caltech early action) and then accepted during regular decision to schools like Yale and Columbia. It's about standing out in an applicant pool, and many women do have qualities about them that would allow them to do that.</p>
<p>My point is, and I think we can all agree on this, that outside of hard core affirmative action (which I do not believe MIT or any top school employs), there are many factors to admissions which may tip the scale toward the women. For example, their interest in such a non-typical field. It is just more difficult for women engineers to be recognized than men, and would take a greater deal of determination and motivation for women to dive into the field of study (personally, I know my parents hated the idea of engineering for many years and would much rather I go to yale). In addition, women applicants offer a personality, mode of thinking, and spirit in the application that they simply do not see from men. I'm not going to deny that to some extent, MIT does want to even out the men:women ratio (happier students, I'd say), but in seeking diversity in thought and in personality, which all schools do, the ratio evens itself out without much deliberate help from the admissions officers. </p>
<p>I am a female applicant that was accepted under the early action program. Is it a matter of pride that I'm defending this? Subconsciously, it's entirely possible, but I'd like to think I'm above that. If you were to whiteout the gender I entered on the application and write an "M" in its place, I believe I still would have been accepted simply because a male applicant with the typical math/science credentials of an MIT applicant, who also is extensively involved in art photography, is a strong writer who loves literature and poetry, campaigns for human rights alongside senators and mayors, played three varsity sports all four years of high school, volunteers at red cross, at hospitals, at soup kitchens, is active in music, in politics, in elections, in mentoring, so on and so forth, and wrote essays about a creek he used to escape to as a child and a room at the back of the library... would have stood out JUST as strongly in an applicant pool of male engineers.</p>
<p>Sorry for rambling. I hope I have made my point. Everyone accepted to MIT deserves to be there by their own right, and their accomplishment absolutely should not be belittled by stabs at their race, sex, geographic location, financial situation, etc etc... it's simply so much more complicated than that.</p>
<p>zzii, Yes I am a canadian :D and proud of it
Back to one of the questions i posed earlier: I understand that admissions for international students is extremely competitive. For those who argue that there is a "slight" advantage, do you think the advantage will still apply as an applicant in an international pool, or is international admissions to MIT so competitive and scarce that they tend to look beyong gender and balancing the male-female ratio for international students?</p>
<p>"
I am a female applicant that was accepted under the early action program. Is it a matter of pride that I'm defending this? Subconsciously, it's entirely possible, but I'd like to think I'm above that. If you were to whiteout the gender I entered on the application and write an "M" in its place, I believe I still would have been accepted simply because a male applicant with the typical math/science credentials of an MIT applicant, who also is extensively involved in art photography, is a strong writer who loves literature and poetry, campaigns for human rights alongside senators and mayors, played three varsity sports all four years of high school, volunteers at red cross, at hospitals, at soup kitchens, is active in music, in politics, in elections, in mentoring, so on and so forth, and wrote essays about a creek he used to escape to as a child and a room at the back of the library... would have stood out JUST as strongly in an applicant pool of male engineers."</p>
<p>yay!, toot your own horn more please!</p>
<p>Pebbles wrote all of that so that no one could deny the fact that she is just as accomplished as any male acceptee. So that no one could deny the fact that she belongs accepted to MIT as much as anyone, if not more. </p>
<p>She was not "tooting her own horn". She was subtly making a point. </p>
<p>But obviously no one is going to come to agreement here? I don't think anything I can say would sway anyone's thoughts one way or the other. Although, rational discussion is always good, and I think it's been fairly rational so far. I'm not sure what my point is to saying this stuff, so I'll just let my comments stand.</p>
<p>females have it easier than males</p>
<p>under represented minorities have it easier than over represented minorities</p>
<p>end of story.</p>
<p>Oh, are you serious? I can't believe people are really dense enough to jump to conclusions about what they'd like to hear instead of keeping an open mind to understand the point I'm trying to make. I have never posted a single "stats and ecs" thread, so obviously I'm not big on revealing my credentials. I was simply trying to make you see what a female applicant might have to add to the pool that the typical male engineer-type would not. My point was that in trying to build a diverse community of diverse interests, you can block out the M or F on applications and some would still stick out, regardless of their gender.</p>
<p>You obviously have a pre-conceived notion on the issue already and are unwilling to even consider another point of view. That's all I'll say on the issue then, it feels like I'm talking to a wall anyways.</p>
<p>and to JLP -</p>
<p>Thanks for your post, but actually, I wasn't trying to say ANYTHING about my own credentials and if I belong at MIT. I have no doubt about that at all. I was actually trying to give an example of what a female applicant might offer in terms of diversity of thoughts and interests, and make the point that had any MALE applied with the SAME credentials, he would have stuck out just the same, because how many engineering majors are interested in art and politics?</p>
<p>Pebbles is an amazing person and regardless of gender or ethnicity would have been admitted to MIT.</p>
<p>I think that's probably the case of most of the women who are accepted. </p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>I know craploads of MIT students.</p>
<p>All of the girls I know are equally as impressive as the guys. Stop complaining :)</p>
<p>I'd like to point out that I bet if everyone in this discussion had been admitted, this discussion probably wouln't be taking place.</p>
<p>So, in light of that, let's just try and not take things personal and feel cheated by "the man, the system, or Marilee Jones." If anything we should all remember what's constantly being repeated to us (though I admit it is a poor substitute for an acceptance packet) that it's more of a space issue and less of there being something wrong. Let's stop the hypothetical discussion of, "If I had a vagina I would have been accepted to MIT." I hope I didn't put anyone off...just calling it like I see it.</p>