Is it protocol to take a lesson when visting a music school?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I hesitate to get in the middle of this, but during my decades as a university professor, I probably would have hesitated to give a trial lesson to a student who was “shopping” amongst my colleagues. Colleagial relationships are forever, but students come and go. I would have suggested that the student sit in on lessons, or my studio class, but I would have declined teaching a lesson to the incoming student. I would have been friendly and helpful, praised my colleagues, but I would not have made any effort to function as a teacher. Even now I do not give lessons to singers who are dropping in, who have other teachers, unless that teacher knows about it and approves. Usually it is the case the the teacher is the referring party, and it is at the teacher’s behest that I am addressing an issue. No double dipping. It is not fair to the permanent teacher to have people tampering and not know what is going on. </p>

<p>Another part of it is that I think it is troublesome and professionally irresponsible to introduce any new concepts to someone who will leave and not have access to answers to further questions. Now, as a private instructor, if a would-be student comes to me, I will hear them, tell them what I hear as their strengths and weaknesses, and explain to them what my pecking order would be of addressing vocal technique. What I would not do is give them a lesson which changed or attempted to fix anything unless I knew it would be an ongoing process. If I know the teacher, I might communicate with him/her what I heard (and saw) and what I would suggest as a process. </p>

<p>I think that a would be singer can tell how things will be by witnessing my singers, my interactions with them, and how I function as a human being. IMHO</p>

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<p>Lorelei describes what the professor we talked to said—that teacher “shopping” was discouraged. It isn’t that I don’t understand the desire to “shop”, particularly when traveling many miles to visit a school, but it was important to me that we played by the “rules”, whatever they were. It sounds like things worked out for other people having multiple lessons, but I am glad that someone in the field here on CC corroborates what had been my understanding.</p>

<p>As I might have mentioned earlier, we thought hearing ensembles, classes and S getting to play with other players were experiences that were at least as important as the actual lessons. These experiences really helped shape his list too, and why we thought visits or summer programs saved us time and money before auditions, since he eliminated some programs this way in advance.</p>

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<p>Lorelei, thank you for your input on this subject. Your very valid points do leave me with some puzzlement. The prospective student and parent spend hundreds of dollars to fly to the school, stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, etc., to investigate a program and ascertain whether or not there may be a teacher who might be a fit for the student. Certainly watching lessons and master classes is desirable, but to gauge whether or not communication between potential teacher and student is good, whether teaching style is a fit, how else does one really do this without a sample lesson? Obviously the students’ current teachers know about the lessons–the student is moving on to college with the knowledge of the current teacher. You and many others have stressed the importance of the voice teacher first and foremost, over reputation of the school, prestige, location… Not every teacher in a particular program is going to be a fit, so why not attempt to meet and get lessons from several? In fact, in our first college visit trip, we emailed several teachers at each site. One doesn’t know how many if any will have time for a lesson, so if two or three write back and say yes, are we to choose only one of them so that we don’t step on toes? And how would we choose, sight unseen? As an arts teacher myself, I view my excellent colleagues not as competition, but as fellow artists with whom I share ideas and inspiration. I’m really unconcerned if a student “likes” another teacher’s class better than mine. I know we have different things to offer, and personalities enter into the equation as well. Is it different in the voice teaching world? My D’s current voice teacher was thrilled that my D had 4 lessons with different teachers over spring break. She helped my D sort through the feedback she was given, helped her evaluate the value of what each teacher seemed to offer. She explicitly said how wonderful it was for my D to get this opportunity, and was able to explain how the input from the various teachers meshed with what the current teacher is doing. It seems to me that if a college voice teacher is to agree at all to give sample or “informational” lessons, then sure he/she knows that she is being compared with other teachers, at that school, at schools across the country, and with the student’s current voice teacher. That is simply the nature of the business, isn’t it? If I were the head of a voice department, and prospective students, after visiting and taking sample lessons, were all signing up for teacher X and avoiding teacher Y, that is information I would want to know. If teacher Y has all the openings in her schedule because her students are always leaving, as a prospective student I would want to know that as well. But I would have a hard time finding that out. I could, however, make a judgment myself based upon a sample lesson. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you completely.</p>

<p>What about sample lessons after acceptance? To choose between programs, a student would really need to compare and contrast teachers within a program and between programs. If that is unacceptable “shopping” then what would be acceptable? The voice teachers are shopping the students as well, aren’t they? As you well know, we are talking about investing $200,000 or more in our kid’s educations. That is not done without thorough research. We are talking about four years of a life. We are talking about the development and care of the student’s one and only instrument. My D’s voice teacher says the following: About 25% of the voice teachers out there are really good and can really help you. Another 50% won’t do any harm, won’t make much difference. The remaining 25% can destroy your voice. We want to find that top 25%. For $200k and four or more years, it has to make a difference. How does one do this without “shopping?”</p>

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<p>My D didn’t take lessons from more than one teacher at any of the schools either. She did lots of research and then chose one. I don’t know why she decided that she would only do one lesson at each school. She seemed to have some sense that it could get awkward down the road otherwise. She did sit in on lessons too and ruled out one school based on those. She also sat in on a lesson of the teacher prior to choosing her for a sample lesson at another school. She felt she could tell a lot from observing other lessons. She also made judgments based on observing choral activities. During one choral rehearsal, she was very disturbed by the lack of discipline in the group - kids talking, not being prepared, joking around - showing an overall lack of professionalism.</p>

<p>sopranomom92 - I can certainly see your point, but I don’t think you can weed out the teachers who may ruin a voice in one sample lesson. The sample lessons may give parents and kids peace of mind, but I don’t think they are any guarantee that a good choice is always made.</p>

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<p>cartera45, I agree, there are no guarantees regarding choices, but based upon a prospective teacher’s bio, watching the teacher in action, seeing the results in other students, interviewing the teacher, and having a sample lesson, one can get an excellent idea as to whether a teacher may be in that 25% who can help. A well-trained, intelligent singer can bring back information to the current voice teacher who can also give input. Based upon all of that, I believe one can at least weed out the potential voice destroyers, and maybe even find that top 25%. At least I hope that is what we find. We’ll see. </p>

<p>I absolutely agree that students can and must make these judgments based also upon observing the professionalism displayed in rehearsals, master classes, even performances. It’s most interesting to see how students give each other feedback in voice class, and how the teacher coaches the students in group classes. Seeing performances is important as well.</p>

<p>At one college with a plethora of excellent voice teachers, all were friendly and very busy. So D had the chance to observe 2 voice lessons with different teachers, plus a master class with another. Teacher “A” ended up hearing D sing, and turned it into a lesson. D loved it, and also liked the other teachers. Were D to be accepted at this school, in order for her to request a voice studio, D might want to have lessons with the other 2 teachers, maybe even others at the school. What if teacher A has no openings? What if she’s going on sabbatical? Actually, at the particular school to which I’m referring, I’d probably feel very safe just taking whomever D ended up with. But from reading this board for the past year, I’m learning that could be a mistake.</p>

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<p>I don’t know enough about voice to comment on choosing a voice teacher. With S2’s instrument (horn), the music world is really pretty small once you get to a certain level. Teachers know each other or of each other, and were very helpful. It was through his private teacher and his summer camp experiences that he was able to narrow down the field to teachers who seemed best for him. That is not to say that there are many, many more fantastic teachers my kid has never studied with. And there are a few my S would still like to study with at some point. </p>

<p>But the actual field of prospective teachers was pretty narrow before he even started thinking about sample lessons. The teacher that he ended up studying with was one that several people had told him they thought would be a great teacher for him. He listed that teacher as his first choice, even though he had never met him, just based on opinions of people he respected, who knew S’s playing and the teacher’s teaching, and felt they were a match.</p>

<p>I think there are huge numbers of students who find their teacher through a summer festival, or friend/recommendation of their private teacher, or some other contact. I don’t think trial lessons are universal by any means, and those who aren’t able to do them shouldn’t feel like they “did it wrong” or have no chance.</p>

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<p>Cartera45 – You are right – there are no guarantees, even with 25 or 50 practice lessons. I do know that my daughter weeded out a number of voice professors she didn’t think she could work with – one, for example, where she had trouble understanding his analogies; still another one who she didn’t understand because of his accent. But she also has a wealth of information and knowledge about different music schools and the profession as a whole.</p>

<p>We looked at the entire process of setting up the lessons as an opportunity to understand the school, the professor, and the culture. The way the professors answered my daughter’s email; whether they read her resume and repertoire list; whether they commented on it gave us considerable insight and information. In one case, we went to a practice lesson and the professor (along with her senior student) spent the first 25 minutes of the lesson giving all the reasons why we shouldn’t go to that school. (Yes, this is absolutely true and no exageration). As I’ve written before, we met many, many wonderful people that made me glad my daughter was entering into such a joyous profession.</p>

<p>Further, aside from just the musical aspects of this event, it was wonderful to see how my daughter grew from being a timid, and shy 16-year old to one comfortable discussing professional issues with experienced and knowledgeable professors. I particularly enjoyed watching my daughter evolve as she maintained correspondence with several of her favorite practice lessons professors from this experience. And I hope she continues to maintain these relationships because they are humanly rewarding and could help her in the future. I believe that it is very important for young people to learn how to establish contacts; how to work within the adult world, particularly one as closely knit as the world of voice performance. I believe/ I hope at least that she has been given a head start through this process.</p>

<p>I didn’t know there were rules against having multiple practice lessons. I know now, as I’ve stated before, there are schools that have policies that discourage having practice lessons period, such as Northwestern and Maryland University. But you know what – you learn this very quickly and painlessly. I will tell you that there are many, many schools which have absolutely no problem with it. My daughter enjoyed multiple practice lessons at McGill’s Schulich School of Music and at Oberlin, University of Michigan, Michigan State, University of North Texas-Denton, and so on – there were never any questions asked. As a matter of fact at McGill, which I consider perhaps one of the more formal “old-school” music schools and one of the first schools my daughter visited, making appointments with multiple professors was encouraged. This gave me the impression that mutiple practice lessons was “standard practice.” </p>

<p>As you might imagine, I agree completely with sopranomom2. If you can afford the trips and you/your student have the time to deal with the labor-intensive and time-consumming appointment-making process, go for multiple practice lessons. But also participate in masters classes, theory classes, discussions with students. Get as much information as you can from each trip and try to enjoy every moment. Don’t be afraid of breaking rules regarding multiple practice lessons. I’ve always found that there will always be people available to tell you soon enough that you’ve broken the rules.</p>

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<p>When purchasing an automobile, generally a test drive is in order. Apologizing for the car analogy, but I do think some form of evaluation of teaching styles is in order if the main reason for attending a school is music performance instruction. Facilities, stature, finances can be gleaned from other information, but witnessing teaching styles is helpful.
My D as a voice major was encouraged to sit in on lessons, and even had a mini-lesson.This took place after her audition and acceptance at a school. She was able to decide between that school and another school where she was already studying voice. This was actually her third visit to this school. I would think this would be practical for a decision between many schools , but once the student has narrowed things down, i think helpful
i can readily understand the reluctance of teachers in a high volume applicant pool (Say, voice or violin) to give sample lessons. Once people know you are seriously considering a school I think it’s reasonable.</p>

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<p>I wonder if we talking about the same thing? I think we are talking about a potential incomming student who will be faced with selecting a teacher, or having one assigned.</p>

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<p>I guess I don’t see the problem. If this were an existing student at the University looking for a different voice professor at the SAME University, I could see the potential problem of being perceived as stealing a student. However, for an incomming student, each professor has the opportunity to present themselves to the student, and the student selects the Prof that they like best (assuming the Prof is also willing to accept the student into their studio).</p>

<p>Do Professors not like to be perceived as competing against each other for students? I think this happens all the time. Kids research math teachers to figure out who’s section of calculus they want to take. The kid is making a 4 year commitment to a music teacher. I think they should be given a lot of opportunities to obtain information to make the selection.</p>

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<p>We are discussing new incomming students, and you can presume the student’s current teacher knows that the student will be leaving the current teacher in the fall for a new teacher at the new school.</p>

<p>It did get sticky for us when we interviewed other teachers at the University where my Son’s teacher is currently a Professor. I think that is a unique circumstance from what everyone else here typically faces.</p>

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<p>Having “shopped” at nine different conservatory environments for a voice teacher, I will tell you that typically teachers expected the student to be evaluating various relationships. We talked to the heads of several voice departments who encouraged us to look (and take lessons) with multiple teachers. The lessons are extremely valuable in terms of communication levels, quick understanding and methods of teaching. I think it is helpful for both the student and the teacher after watching numerous “sample lessons.” We had a very pleasant experience with all of our teachers and the very valuable lessons. And per another thread - we offered to pay in every circumstance.</p>

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<p>These conversations are idealistic. It sounds very appropriate to check everyone out, try this teacher and that, while teachers demonstrate what they do. They are all doing their best. And make no mistake, voice teachers are performers, and the lessons, especially the trial lessons, are performances…they are bringing their A game. Most decisions are ultimately subjective, and most incoming students of singing are ill-prepared to make an accurate judgment about which teacher will help their voice and be a good teacher for them over the long haul. They are reacting to the interpersonal relationships and skills. These are more appropriate, objective issues:</p>

<p>(1) What is the teacher’s background? Do they have academic background as well as performance experience? How much are they still performing? How much time are they gone from the studio during the academic year and how are these lessons covered? </p>

<p>(2) What is the teacher’s teaching experience? What do their present students sound like? Are they singing repertory they can handle successfully? What are recent graduates of the studio doing? Pick a specific class, last years seniors, and ask what they are doing this year and where. </p>

<p>(3) How are the current students functioning. When they come into (observed) lessons, how prepared are they? Does the teacher give them specific assignment and information about what more they need to know about what they are or are not doing? How efficient are the lessons? Are they well organized? Does the teacher have vocabulary to praise, encourage, critique which elicits a positive response from the student?</p>

<p>(4) Does the teacher understand how the voice functions? Are there discussions about posture and energy? Phonation and range? Resonance and projection? Diction and style? Musicality and musicianship? Physical and vocal health? Or is this a teacher who says do it again and imagine yourself doing this and such, a teacher who primarily uses imagery? How is the student being taught to find and maintain things during their own practice? </p>

<p>(5) What is the relationship between the choral program and the voice faculty? Who casts the operas? What is the voice faculty input? Is the opera director a voice teacher whose students get the best roles? Find these important realities out going into the situation. </p>

<p>A brilliant wise teacher is not necessarily the most friendly, gregarious, nurturing human being. It is the person who brings out the best in students and helps them find their own way, gives them the tools to leave and be successful. This teacher also knows in which areas they themselves are not expert, and they know where to send the students to get those other skills. </p>

<p>No matter what administrators and programs have to say about evaluating all the faculty, teacher do not like this process. They have their own opinions about what happens in other studios. Deans are in recruitment mode, so of course they want incoming parents and students to feel happy about how open the whole process is. It all sounds good, but it is not that simple. </p>

<p>Additionally, it is not professionally appropriate for a teacher to volunteer to a student that they personally would like to teach the student. A teacher’s response to any potential student should only be supportive of the level of talent vis-a-vis the standards of the institution. After admission to the institution has been gained, then a student can request a specific teacher and expect a direct answer. </p>

<p>It is a big decision for any student, where to go and what to study. Due diligence and research is very appropriate. But this is not a marriage or social commitment, it is a pedagogical situation. As an aside, I can say that I have never failed to develop a friendly, positive relationship with students who are themselves good students, who have a realistic goal and work toward it, and who trust me to guide the game plan, the priorities. If a student refuses to do the basic work, pushes themselves into inappropriate vocal situations, I lose patience and interest. Excuses and complaints are the worst attributes in a student. FWIW</p>

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<p>Awesome post, Lorelei.</p>

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<p>Thanks for articulating all the competing interests and positions so well Lorelei. One thing that strikes me about your post is that some of this is more aptly aimed at voice teaching than instrumental. I wonder why there is such a difference - but with instrumentalists I see maybe more of a weeding-out process / reality check before they ever get to senior year in high school/auditions. I bet you have a lot more insight than me into <em>that</em> question as well, since I think I recall your writing that you have instrumentalist children! Thanks again.</p>

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<p>Aside from points 4 and 5, I’d say that Lorelei’s post is 100% spot on for instrumentalists too. I see the “weeding out” process for instrumentalists happening far before multiple trial lessons; this is where having recommendations or connections from a good private teacher or ensemble director helps out a lot. There can already be a list of potential names before that first airplane flight, and other names that have been eliminated for a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>However, this conversation certainly does verify the expression YMMV or “Your Mileage May Vary”! :)</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t presume to take a sample lesson from every music teacher for that instrument at a particular school. I would do my research first, narrow the choice down to 2 or 3, and would want a lesson from each of them. If that is shopping around, so be it. It may not be a marriage, but if my Son is expected to be with that teacher for 4 years, I would want to make sure there are not warning signs from the start.</p>

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<p>Fortunately, my son has been with an excellent technician. And, after a few master classes and lessons with different teachers, has developed a sense of how future lessons will go with that teacher. More than just a few teachers were not further considered because he felt that they tried to develop his voice in ways that are not healthy for him at this time.</p>

<p>While it is ideal to do all the research lorelei2702 mentioned, a lot of that information is not available from the school’s website. Even when you post here, NFCS, or other websites, all you get back are: I recommend so-and-so, and avoid so-and-so. Yes it is worthwhile to sit in on a class or performance to hear what their students sound like, but if you are already at the school, why not ask for a private lesson?</p>

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<p>I don’t think they are that idealistic. They reflect the reality of the situation, and how kids have selected teachers. I think your approach is even more idealistic. If someone has already selected a school, then it MIGHT be possible to do all the research. However, if someone is applying to 5 schools, to research all the faculty at all the schools to the level you suggest, is virtually impossible. It is much easier to pay for a voice lesson, and discern much of that info from the lesson.</p>

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<p>Remember, however, there are MANY schools out there that ASSIGN students to studios. They do not give the student the option of selecting the applied faculty. So…YMMV is quite apt.</p>

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<p>If you ask the right questions of the right people you will get the answers. Include administrators, faculty, current and former students in the pool of experts. As an aside: when I made my undergraduate teacher choice, I met and talked to students who were already enrolled…I found them by standing around in the music lobby. Interestingly, I found out later these were the best singers at the school. It makes sense that the singers you find in the music building are the ones who are there to work! They were very blunt and honest about their own teachers and the other teachers under consideration. They talked about who was good for them as graduate students, but who they would have preferred to study with if they were starting as freshmen. They steered me well, and I am forever grateful. I met the woman they recommended briefly at my audition (before I had this conversation), but that was the only contact I had until I showed up at her studio for lessons. </p>

<p>When I made my choice for my doctoral teacher/major professor, my teacher at the time told me with whom I would function well as a student. I asked about various teachers and schools, and he told me I needed to be at a place and with someone whom I could question, who would not be annoyed (and tell me to shut up and sing!) He was very certain about what would be my best choice, and I accepted his judgment and signed on, site unseen, teacher unmet. He was right, too. There came a time in my studies when I wanted to do a project, where he disagreed with the premise. He told me he did not want to cause me any problems and he suggested the person who could best supervise that particular area. He was honest and honorable and the perfect teacher for me. </p>

<p>Due diligence does not require first hand knowledge. Good luck to all.</p>

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<p>Lorelie – thank you for your criteria for observing voice teachers from an earlier posting and your comments from a more recent posting. </p>

<p>Still, I contend that there is significant value in the multiple practice lessons and that a great deal insight can be ascertained from each lesson, particularly when not a lot of relevant information about faculty is easily available from other sources. </p>

<p>I’d just like to bring out the idea that for us the notion of arranging for multiple practice lessons for my voice performance daughter came not from within and not from a voice teacher. Instead it came from BassDad in his seminal discourse on navigating the music school admissions process still available from 2006 at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I am so insistent on this point of multiple practice lessons because my daughter got so much out of the process. I would hate to see young students being discouraged from trying the multiple lesson route without at least sampling the experience. Except for the expenditure of time and some money for travel expenses, there is no harm, but the potential for a great deal of value. It doesn’t have to be 25 practice lessons, or five or 10. Just some. There are no rules or protocols to be broken. If a school or faculty member has a problem with practice lessons or this so-called “shopping,” they’ll let you know very quickly.</p>