Is it time to abolish the liberal arts?

Parents Forum
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<p>Yes Universities the U.S. is still the best (hardly, UK, China and Japan are catching up). But think of how many professors are from another country, the sudden surge in international students, or students who come from other countries, study here, and go back to work for their mother countries.</p>

<p>If anyone here still thinks the U.S. is a world power, wake up. Read Thomas Friedman’s “The World Is Flat”. </p>

<p>In fact, I’m a firm believer in increasing STEM Education, as that is the foundation of a society, and other countries are surpassing us in a competitive global market. However, a liberal arts education should never be abolished, as it is what makes us special and better than those other countries that are surpassing us in education.</p>

<p>Why, for example, are American, German, Israeli or Japanese engineers still the best in the world? Because those countries as well as other European countries still focus on liberal arts, on ingenuity and creativity, on working both sides of the brain. </p>

<p>China, India, and countless other countries churn out engineering degrees by the hundreds of thousands every year, yet American/German/Israeli/Japanese engineers are still making all the innovation, all the ingenuity, and more. And that’s because a liberal arts education is emphasized, as it should be.</p>

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<p>I like the comments that come here and on the other threads about how Asians economic background is the reason for their being more careerist than their Western counterparts. I am an Indian from India and a mom of a girl going to college this fall.</p>

<p>Our parents and grandparents have worked very hard and given us the best education that they could afford. There is no such thing as welfare dole-outs in our country. The private schools are phenomenally expensive. Medical bills can be break your back as there is no insurance. The middle class ends up paying maximum taxes. Quality of life and resources in terms of infrastructure are nothing to boast about. The bureucracy can be suffocating. But against all odds the spirit and the will of people is very strong. </p>

<p>In spite of all this our generation has chosen to save for their children’s education and our children will not be graduating from college with huge loans. Though a very small percentage ,but every year about over 7 lakh parents from India are sending their children all over the world to get the best education they can. Those who stay back for them it is not easy to get admission in the college of their choice as there is huge number of kids with rigorous curriculum coming out of High School with exemplary grades.</p>

<p>The point I am making is that we are culturally tuned to be this way No harm in that… Our parents were willing to fore go their lavish vacations but sending us to a private school was the first priority.That is what our parents did and that is what we pass on to our children. But with a difference. Our generation was continuously asked to choose between medical and engineering, whereas our children are blessed that they have lot more options to choose from. But the bottom line is why would I spent over $240,000 for a college education if that education is not geared towards getting a worthwhile job. After it all boils down to taking care of oneself and family, have a good life and not be dependent on others for our survival.</p>

<p>But trust me we do not force our children rather as a parents we think it is our duty to guide them. After all we are called parents for a reason. As teenagers as it is there is so much going on in a teenager’s life that they are not always able to see the bigger picture. Life is not easy and life is always about making choices and therefore as parents we are obliged to gently nudge and push and inspire and not allow them to take decisions solely on the basis of peer pressure and comfort and convenience. </p>

<p>Rather…this is how we try, it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t…</p>

<p>We expose them to variety of courses and art hobbies and allow them to see their strenghs and help them combine their passions which can also be a great career choice. It could be anything from having a flair for languages to being part of student exchange program to a country that is totally alien in terms of language, food and culture to having a consistent activity during high school years like MUN to encouraging and inspiring them to challenge themselves and not do things because they are easy to getting them out of their comfort zone as much as possible to having a hobby be it vocal, instrumental, computer games, reading, writing, movies and the works …just explore… And at the same time travel and party and have a social life just like any other teenager in the world.</p>

<p>just some stats :</p>

<p>''Overall, the number of international students in the US increased by 3% to 690,923 during the 2009-10 academic year. ‘’</p>

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<p>Correction- the stats at the end are not related to this post</p>

<p>And 1 lac (not 7 lac) Indian students will be going abroad for studies</p>

<p>Also want to add</p>

<p>In just about 63 years of independence ,with the world’s second largest population, high illiteracy and poverty levels, a segment of our middle class of our generation has already found a work/life balance to some extent and our children will be fortunate to have a better life than us. Isn’t that what all parents want for their children… a chance at a better life</p>

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<p>Thought just share with you the article that i came across </p>

<p>[Indian</a> Students in USA surpass 100,000 count | The Indians Abroad](<a href=“http://www.theindiansabroad.com/2009/11/indian-students-in-usa-surpass-100000]Indian”>http://www.theindiansabroad.com/2009/11/indian-students-in-usa-surpass-100000)</p>

<p>Indian Students in USA surpass 100,000 count</p>

<p>The Institute of International Education, the leading educational and cultural exchange organization in the United States publishes the annual Open Doors report. According to the Open Door 2009, the number of Indian students studying in USA has exceeded 100,000 (one lakh) mark. In spite of the slow down in the US economy, America continues to attract international students at a record pace. India, China and South Korea are the top three nations with highest students studying in America.</p>

<p>According to the Open Doors related statistics on this topic:</p>

<pre><code>The total number of Indian students studying in the United States increased by 9% in 2008/2009, from 94,563 to 103,260. This is the highest number ever for total students from a foreign country studying in USA
This is the eighth year in a row that India leads as the country sending the most students to the United States. However, China is catching up quickly, with more than 20% jump in the Chinese students in USA for 2009.
The Indian student numbers in the U.S. for 2008/209 in detail are:
15,600 undergraduates,
71,019 graduates (including masters and PhD programs),
1,755 non-degree, and
14,886 internship participants.

In a sign of mutual attraction, according to the 2009 report, the number of U.S. students studying in India has increased 20% to 3,150.
The universities in California host the largest number of foreign students with 93,124, followed by New York in second place with 74,934, and Texas with 58,188 students.
The New York City metropolitan area is leading city for international students, with 59,322 enrolled in area schools. The Los Angeles metropolitan area is in second place with 42,897 international students.
</code></pre>

<p>Announcing the 2009 Open Doors numbers, the U.S. Ambassador to India Timothy J. Roemer added, “….These extraordinary numbers, growing each year, are a testament to the deep and robust relationship our two countries share and the bright future of cooperation the peoples of our great nations will see.”</p>

<p>“The United States is committed to enriching the educational experiences and opportunities of students and peoples from all walks of life, belief and economic background. As I have visited schools across India, I have seen the determination and commitment of students and their families to use education as the key to unlocking a better future. It is a privilege and honor to work with them to achieve that future together,” Ambassador Roemer said.</p>

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<p>"If anyone here still thinks the U.S. is a world power, wake up. Read Thomas Friedman’s “The World Is Flat”. "</p>

<p>anyone who doesnt know the difference between A world power, and the number one world power (I dont agree that the US isnt the number one world power, but that at least is debatable) needs desperately to study political science. Not just read Friedman (and Im sure Friedman never said that - maybe they just need to read)</p>

<p>anyone making any statement about loans, etc should study Econ through intermediate micro. Anyone talking about unemployment should do intermediate macro :)</p>

<p>And yeah, everyone should take a course in statistics.</p>

<p>I dont know that everyone should take calculus, but I would like to live in a world where, say, at least 30% of liberal arts majors at least understood what a differential. So if someone said the second derivative of change in painting was negative, they would know what was meant. </p>

<p>And before anyone on either side says anything about STEM vs Liberal Arts, they should read CP Snow’s famous essay on the two cultures.</p>

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<p>kp217 writes “I’m Indian and I’m doing business but most of my indian/azn friends are doing STEM bc thats what they are interested in/good at.” </p>

<p>Hmm. I know a lot of Indians/Asians that do STEM because it was a traditional career path for advancement in their parents’ home countries. Quite a few do not like it that much but are forced by family expectations to go into STEM. It seems like I meet another Indian every year that graduated from MIT and now does something completely different than STEM.</p>

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<p>“What I meant is that in the humanities they TELL you how it is and what to think (neo-Platonism is THIS, THIS is what happened in the Vietnam War and THIS is what you should think of Hamlet)”</p>

<p>er, no, any decent liberal arts course would expose you to original documents on Neo platonism, the viet nam war, or whatever, and to conflicting interpretations. </p>

<p>My DD will be starting at RPI in the fall - i have the utmost respect for STEM education and STEM schools. I do not have respect for someone making bald faced lies to be provocative - on the internet thats called ■■■■■■■■, and could be the cause of being banned. However I am pretty sure discussion of moderation policy is itself off topic here.</p>

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<p>antipacifist, I think you are simply ■■■■■■■■ and don’t believe what you are saying. However, I’ll bite.</p>

<p>I have been a strong proponent, especially for kids that don’t attend ivy schools, that kids should major in something vocational such as accounting, engineering, hard science, design and/or applied arts, acturarial studies and certain other majors that would produce greater job chances such as Arabic studies etc. This isn’t a complete list.</p>

<p>However, even I would NEVER abolish liberal arts. As I noted in my prior post, I don’t want to live in a world without liberal arts or other arts such as music, dance and fine art. Moreover, I do believe that a strong commitment to liberal arts for all students expands the creative center of the mind more than just taking vocationally oriented courses or STEM courses… Learning to think not only creatively but to read critically and write well is critical to success in many fields that STEM courses don’t provide. I can assure you that most management jobs even in technical areas, strong writing and reading, and speaking skills are a must. This is why I have strongly urged changes in the curriculum to include a logic course, and at least one course in philosophy and one course in ethics, at least a course in grammar ( unless a kid places out) , one course in literature not to mention a year of economics and one course in political science, not to mention at least one course in public speaking and/or oratory. I would even require a year of accounting for people to be able to perform bank reconciliations and to provide a better understanding of financial statements.</p>

<p>All of this makes us better citizens and better voters too, which I think you would agree is essential for a democracy. It also enhances your ability to become a manager. Otherwise you will become just another technical drone.</p>

<p>In addition, I find these courses provide a greater degree of open mindedness that STEM courses don’t provide. Admittedly, that is my opinion. </p>

<p>As for history, I do have mixed feelings about that one area. The old saying, “Those that don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it” is nice but doesn’t seem to be realistic. Both countries and people continue to make the same stupid mistakes. How many times do people have to learn that a militaristic policy such as that of the Spartans and Romans and Mongols don’t work from a long term perspective. Moreover, the world will eventually distroy the country that has those policies, yet we have the Napololians and Hitlers who are constantly militaristic. History is not learned or at least it is ignored. How many times must people be told to live within their means only to be ignored. Thus, as I said, I do question the relevance of History. However, I would certainly keep liberal arts in both high school and college and probably strengthen them as I opined.</p>

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<p>Why thank you for that correction, how decadently generous of you. </p>

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<p>No, of course you don’t. I’ll spell it out for you - simple supply and demand. If there are way more STEM majors than the market can handle, the salaries are going to decrease - less demand, if they’re a dime a dozen why bother paying someone an exorbatant salary when you could just snap your fingers and replace them with someone cheaper. Tenured/Senority-based STEM majors would go out the window, “you want a raise? Yeah… no, not seeing it, I’m seeing you’re fired and the guy who will work for less is hired” As the number of STEM-ys goes up? Their salaries will collectively go down. You must have taken some Econ, this is day one stuff - I barely got a C in econ in high school and I know this.</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way</p>

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<p>A few things here: 1) “how it happened” in Vietnam is HISTORY so YES they’re going to tell you what and how it happened based on the current data. You don’t get to decide Columbus found America in 1776 and that Lincoln signed the Declaration of Freedom because you’re dealing with FACTS. Modern historians tend to look for MORE information now so some of it gets changed (ie: Slave diaries that were hidden from plantaton owners giving more primary source material) this is different from the wackos in Texas just whole-stop revising history based on b.s. this has data behind it.</p>

<p>2) If you’re being given a definition of something like “neo-Platonianism” then YES, it’s going to tell you how to think - THIS is what falls under this definition, hence why it’s the definition.</p>

<p>3) How sad for you that your English teacher told you how to interpret Hamlet. Professors tend to tell you what the accepted interpretation is and what each thing generally means but they don’t tell you definitively HOW to think. Unless we’re talking about Freudian interpretations of Hamlet then there’s a body of research behind that, all the same… it’s an INTERPRETATION - as in it can change. </p>

<p>Jesus dude.</p>

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<p>History is an immeasurably important field of knowledge and a pillar of human civilization. To ‘question’ its ‘relevance’ is ludicrous.</p>

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<p>^^it seems like ur trying to say big words that mean nothing; can you back up ur claim at all?</p>

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<p>Besides… “immeasurably” “ludicrous”… these are meaningless big words? Yeah… good luck with that. You think it’s really acceptable for some collegiate to be ignorant of history, especially in a country like the United States? Lemme put it this way: without history, we’d be lost - that you’re even questioning it shows that some educator failed to impress upon you the importance somewhere along the way - that’s your problem, not History’s. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t important.</p>

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<p>I love history, so let’s not jump to stupid conclusions. But I am curious though if there is any tangible evidence of its usefulness? Why are you doing everything you are criticizing me for? I have already proved my point that history is worthless (unless someone would like to refute that).</p>

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<p>I’m sorry, the U.S. is simply not a world power like we used to be. </p>

<p>Our economy is in shambles, our education is joke-worthy, our population is obese and lazy, so many other modern countries are surpassing us in terms of development, higher standard of living, etc.</p>

<p>We might have the most money and a huge economy, but when the top 150 people in the U.S. make more than the bottom 50% combined, you know something is wrong in your country.</p>

<p>In a few decades the U.S. will be the laughing stock of the world.</p>

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<p>You on the other hand feel the need to protect a fellow liberal art supporter</p>

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<p>“In a few decades the U.S. will be the laughing stock of the world.”…I’m not sure that would happen unless some sort of bomb destroyed us…lol. But yes, we have been on the decline for a long time now.</p>

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<p>This is such a stupid conversation and thread idea. Of course liberal arts have practical uses in today’s society. A major in political science is very important to those who run for public offices. In case you didn’t know, politicians make a fairly large salary. History is a good major for government workers also. History is useful too so we don’t repeat our past failures.</p>

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<p>@Morpheus - off the top of my head… anybody doing foreign policy work needs to have some idea about the area. Since even before Bush we’ve had this disgusting cowboy mentality that we can just get involved with a region and do whatever, abra kadabra they’re a democracy now. Maybe democracy doesn’t work for that region, or this region, and maybe for this region over here it does. If you don’t understand the history going in, you’re useless on the field. </p>

<p>This can easily be extrapolated to anthropology - kinda stupid to try and document a regional group if you have no knowledge whatsoever of their own history (or in the case of groups like the Yanomamo circa the 60s, surrounding area). Politically how can you understand a group if you have no formal knowledge of what they’re about. Without history it’s way too easy for someone to just say “what’s x-group complainin’ about, shut up and get in line.”</p>

<p>Imagine if you will, the Civil Rights Movement - but there was no documentation on the history of slavery and racism in this country, or that women wanted to work, and DID so in WWII… “why they cryin’?” that’s what you’re left with. It lays the foundations.</p>

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<p>I can’t believe this thread is still going. It’s a ridiculous thesis. Ranks right up there with “Let’s do away with vegetables. Meat is the only important food!”</p>

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<p>Well I am glad that that is the end the that conversation!</p>