Against the liberal arts

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>The liberal arts should not be abolished. Rather, most people should not be allowed to major in them. I propose a cull.</p>

<p>You can argue that most liberal arts fields contribute to society (you'd have a hard time with post-modern English, but you could try), but that doesn't escape the fact that the vast majority of liberal arts majors don't actually contribute to the various fields, and don't use their liberal arts-acquired skills in their jobs or daily lives. </p>

<p>Also, liberal arts skills are quite narrow. Let's get that straight. Critical thinking doesn't count. You can learn that anywhere.</p>

<p>Let's keep the top decile of liberal arts majors, let them have a top-notch education with other capable students of their kind. Let them compete with each other and eventually populate the ranks of professors, researchers, authors, etc. who will maintain and continue the field.</p>

<p>The majority of those who study the liberal arts just out of interest, or just to get a job, and who aren't talented to be more than mere observers in the goings-on of class:</p>

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<li>Should be disabused of the notion that the liberal arts will provide much in terms of career preparation, and the romantic notion that sitting in some classroom is to be associated with actual great thinkers</li>
<li>Should be forced to pursue their degrees at an expensive private school without the use of public funding</li>
</ol>

<p>If you have interest in the liberal arts, but aren't good at it, then you can pursue it in your spare time. Liberal arts fields indeed contribute a lot to society, but those contributions are made by an elite few.</p>

<p>*By liberal arts, I'm referring to the humanities and social sciences mainly. Basically any field that should be seen as avocational instead of vocational. It is is nothing inherent to the fields themselves. If one day engineering became an unemployable major, yet everyone wanted to study it out of interest for the subject, I would advocate the same kind of policy be applied to engineering.</p>

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<p>But Liberal Art includes Mathematics now</p>

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<p>Oh my bloody head, will you two not let this go? How long are you two going to post this pathetic tripe?!</p>

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<p>Many people who study something “out of interest” through their own curiosity may end up majoring in something and contributing something excellent to the field. I used to want to major in English, tried an intro Psych class “out of interest” and immediately changed my major to something I found a lot more “interesting.” Of course since they’re both in the scary “Humanities/Social Science” categories it must not make much difference to you.</p>

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<p>How about we force pretentious engineering majors to pursue their degrees at expensive private schools because their better-than-thou attitude problems frequently cause riots. It’s for their own good. But no… see now… that’s fascism, that’s discrimination. Colleges? Not allowed to do that because discrimination is wrong… which you would know if you paid attention to anything from first grade on. </p>

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<p>May I? Why thank you. One block from my house in San Jose is a counseling service that helps the high school and surrounding area. They’re well-known, respected, and do a lot of good. The moment I get my BA I can easily use all the knowledge I’ve gathered to this point to intern and get a job immediately. Should I need to stay closer to UCLA, I’m sure I can get a psych-related job on the campus, or near the campus. Easy-peasy. Ph.D/Psy.D in Neuropsychology? You know who’s gonna really like that? Hospitals who need people who know how the brain functions. But noooo, my skill set is entirely useless and I’ll be broke and jobless right out of college with no hope for employment because my skills are largely useless.</p>

<p>Will you ■■■■■■ PLEASE go away? You’re REALLY, REALLY, REALLY annoying!!</p>

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<p>Enough already. There will not and can not be rational, unemotional discussion about this topic.</p>

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<p>I think everybody who sincerely wants to major in the liberal arts should be allowed to do that. However, I have a suspicion that many liberal arts majors are following a path of least resistance. </p>

<p>Liberal arts colleges (including the College of Arts and Sciences at larger universities) are the only ones that allow high school students to apply undecided. If you want to go into engineering or business or nursing or urban planning or…, you need to make a deliberate decision to apply to the business or engineering or… program. If you don’t make a deliberate decision, society chooses the liberal arts for you. </p>

<p>I wonder how many liberal arts majors we would have if high school students had to make a deliberate decision to major in history, just as if they were applying to a business or engineering program. That’s how college admission works in Europe, and they have far fewer liberal arts majors than the US.</p>

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Eh, yes there’s “undecided - arts & sciences,” but you can also apply to engineering schools as “undecided - engineering,” and business schools as “undecided - business.” So while you know you want to major in a particular category, you don’t know the specifics.</p>

<p>Further, most schools don’t require you to declare a major for at least two years; this is important, as most don’t have an accurate picture of their future while in high school. Taking a large variety of intro classes convinces a lot of people to change their plans to a particular major or career path.</p>

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but most universities seem to expect students to declare a major in their current school (e.g. the College of Engineering or the College of Arts and Sciences). Transferring into the business or engineering or nursing school seems to be tricky, not least because liberal arts students are probably behind on the engineering or business or nursing curriculum after a year in the liberal arts college.</p>

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Yes, but that’s missing the point. Students who apply undecided to the College of Engineering still need to make up their mind to major in an engineering discipline. Students who apply undecided to the College of Arts and Sciences often have no idea whatsoever what they want to do with their lives. At least students at my college don’t - but maybe I shouldn’t generalize to liberal arts students at other colleges?</p>

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<p>Actually, at many colleges it is standard for both Arts & Sciences and Engineering students to just take gen ed courses in their respective disciplines for the first year or two before declaring a specific major. For engineers, these are classes like calc, physics, et cetera. For humanities students it’s things like philosophy, psych, history, et cetera.</p>

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<p>Yes, shame on high school seniors for not knowing exactly what they want to do with the rest of their lives.</p>

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<p>I graduated from Georgia Tech, where liberal arts takes a back seat to applied and natural sciences, and I believe there is value in an education that incorporates the liberal arts. By that, I mean taking courses in Shakespeare or Chaucer, for example, even if you are an engineering or business major (i.e. “practical”).</p>

<p>If you just want a job that pays reasonably well after graduation, enter a local two-year technical college in an in-demand field. Unless you have an expensive lifestyle, you should never be without shelter or without food. Of course, given the target audience for CC, that is not what most people have in mind.</p>

<p>But at the same time, what’s the point of studying four years of Shakespeare if you can’t get a decent-paying job afterward? We’re all familiar, by now, of the “horror stories” of grads with six-figure student loan debt who can’t find gainful employment with their liberal arts degrees.</p>

<p>Could there be a balance here? Yes. There used to be (still is?) a poster here named taxguy. He recommended, and I heartily agree, choosing a “practical” major but making sure to take a lot of liberal arts courses. Without those courses, you cannot claim to be “educated.” You would be an individual with a college degree but no sense of culture. But without the “practical” courses, your chances of getting a fulfilling job that pays well goes down, way down. So why not combine the two and get the best of both worlds?</p>

<p>Some may retort that the liberal arts prepare you for law school, medical school, and so forth. But these people are admitting that the liberal arts education by itself does not lead to a well-paying job, for if it did, the student wouldn’t HAVE to attend these professional schools. You don’t NEED a Masters to be a professional engineer. You don’t NEED a Masters to be a public accountant. You can be those with a bachelor’s and passing some exams.</p>

<p>Really, there is no conflict here. Everybody needs shelter and food. Not everybody needs to be “educated,” but you cannot claim to be “educated” if you do not have exposure to the liberal arts.</p>

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What, exactly, is wrong with that?</p>

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<p>^ everything. Sure there’s nothing wrong with not knowing EXACTLY what you want to do before college, but if you dont have SOME idea youre going to end up jobless and homeless. “undeclared-engineering” is way different then “undeclared liberal arts.” engineering majors take lots of the same basic core classes so an undeclared engineering major already has more skills than an undeclared lib arts major, who takes classes about women’s studies and 5th century lit. same with business, etc., etc. liberal arts should be abolished because they have NO place in modern society. i am SO sick of people defending the liberal arts because there’s no way to defend them in 2011.</p>

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<p>wishwanderer, you never answered by question on your thread. How can society function without philosophy?</p>

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<p>but why is philosophy necessary? at least why do we need people studying it. maybe society couldn’t function without “philosophy” but it sure as HELL could function without the study of philosophy by latte-drinking upper middle class spoiled lib arts majors</p>

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The study of philosophy is necessary for a virtuous society.</p>

<p>And you know, I don’t like coffee and come from poverty, so your stereotypes are not appreciated.</p>

<p>Also, for another field… Do you enjoy movies or television? We’ve already established that you’re averse to books.</p>

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<p>I think you guys missed b@r!um’s point.</p>

<p>When you apply to engineering you have, usually, 2 years to decide what engineering you are going to major in. But, at the time you apply you are applying to egineering and “stuck” there.</p>

<p>When you apply to the Liberal Arts and Sciences college, you don’t need to say what you are doing (Math, History, Women’s Studies, etc.). You can apply undecided and then take as long as you like to decide. And then within those majors, decide the actual field you are going to study in. </p>

<p>There’s a differece.</p>

<p>and if liberal arts majors want to waste their money let them. As much as we may disagree with it we can’t tell them what to do.</p>

<p>I may disagree with what you chose to study in but I will defend (but not to the death) your right to study it.</p>

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<p>Movies and television = fueled by technology, most Tv shows and movies are crap as far the writing goes, so what’s your point</p>

<p>and the study of philosophy is NOT necessary for a virtuous society, what do you know, virtue means nothing in a STEM society, its theoretical hyper-philosophyincal BS. i bet some of the most "virtuous " people you can think of never studied philosophy - lah?</p>

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Do you really think it’s a good idea for high school students to head off to college with no sense of purpose or direction? </p>

<p>Sometimes it bothers me just how many students at my liberal arts college answer the question “Why are you going to college?” with “Isn’t that what everybody does?” I think we should encourage students to reflect on what they want to get out of the experience before they spend $50,000 a year of someone else’s money. If they want (and can afford) a liberal arts education, it’s a great decision for them. But the liberal arts have become the default for middle class students who take college for granted and buy into the don’t-worry-about-what-you-want-to-study-because-you-won’t-need-to-declare-a-major-until-the-second-year mantra. (When, in practice, just applying to the College of Arts and Sciences closes off a world of opportunities.)</p>

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<p>Why does any individual CARE which majors exist in the world?<br>
Why on earth would anyone go around talking about whether a type of major should be abolished or allowed to take enrollment?</p>

<p>It’s complete nonsense. It’s a waste of time. It accomplishes nothing. </p>

<p>The OP needs to realize that the laws of supply and demand will decide which majors last. No teenager can affect that outcome by declaring something should be abolished or limited to the top 10%. That kind of arrogance provides no service to society. </p>

<p>I happen to hate NASCAR. It’s expensive, dangerous, wasteful, pollutes, and as a sport, it has little to no fitness element. But I certainly don’t go around talking about how it should be abolished. It’s there for people who want it. Just like Liberal Arts. </p>

<p>Good grief. Get over yourselves.</p>

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<p>This is an incredibly stupid thread. Some people really need to get over themselves.</p>

<p>For the record, I’m an engineering student.</p>