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<p>Oh, that is right. I forgot that RML did not attend Cal.</p>
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<p>Did you work on that recent commercial for … BING?</p>
<p>Noimag,
I was trying to be diplomatic and not rouse RML, but I think that the aforementioned privates have those intangibles in spades and thus, for many, many, many of their grads, the differences in costs are very justifiable vs a large State U like UC Berkeley. I think similar arguments can be made for a great many colleges. I have no doubt that the strong affiliations are real
and often surprising to others not familiar with the school (Texas A&M is an excellent example of this and there are many private colleges as well that are like this).</p>
<p>My crystal ball is a bit cloudy these days and so Im not sure what the future holds for the Golden State, but you can count me as a major skeptic on the claims that the financial cuts wont have a material impact on the UC campuses, including UCB and UCLA. Still, California has great bone structure and, with the right leadership and a decent American economy, can be the prettiest lady again in the entire USA. But right now, its hard to see that happening in the next 5 years.</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>Los Links!! :D</p>
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<p>What are you talking about?</p>
<p>California has the largest economy of any state in the US, and is still top-10 in the world.</p>
<p>Despite having lost about 10 lbs, she’s still the prettiest in all of the US.</p>
<p>How would you like it if California seceded from the union? Where would you get your upper 2% wage earners’ income-tax to support your federal government then? ;)</p>
<p>Yeah, Arnold enacted some draconian cuts within the system, but he’s going to be out really soon. Whitman or Brown know the value of a UC education. (Arnold actually attended UCLA for awhile apparently.)</p>
<p>Even in the best of times, I’ve never known anyone who attended Berkeley as an OOS undergraduate. For a top high school student East of the Mississippi, it would be an odd choice. Anyone with a realistic shot at OOS admissions has so many other choices available that offer smaller classes, comparable undergraduate academics in many fields, and lower costs in most cases. Of course, many of these schools are simply closer to home.</p>
<p>As for “prestige”, this concept has about as much reality as “aether” or “phlogiston”. Why are there so many CC threads about such a medieval notion? If it is to have any useful meaning, it has to be resolvable to observable features directly related to the quality of undergraduate education and graduate outcomes. When you consider many such measurements, Berkeley’s 20-something place in the US News undergraduate ranking of national universities seems about right (though certainly this depends on which measurements are important to you.) </p>
<p>Now, if you want to consider outcomes, try to pick measurements that actually reflect the academic mission of most universities. American undergraduate programs do not exist simply to crank out doctors, lawyers, or investment bankers. Success in these areas is a collateral effect. Great universities exist to discover and disseminate knowledge, sometimes related to the professions but for the most part in liberal arts and science fields. Average alumni salaries are a poor quality indicator of that. Somewhat better is the PhD production rate. How many graduates are turned on enough by their undergraduate academic experience, and prepared well enough, to want to put themselves through what it takes to earn the highest degree? Berkeley’s rate recently has been about 6%. This is better than any other public university in America, but a fraction of the highest rate (about 35% for CalTech). More than 30 private colleges and universities have higher rates than Berkeley does (despite Berkeley’s many premier graduate school departments). Berkeley’s place in this ranking approximately coincides with its overall undergraduate US News ranking. ([nsf.gov</a> - SRS Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/)). </p>
<p>Of course Berkeley is a great, world-class university. However, in most cases, there is no overwhelmingly good reason for a top student from Texas (Virginia, North Carolina, Wisconsin, or Michigan) to pay a $20-30K premium to choose it over one’s own state university. On the other hand, after factoring in aid, it is often the case that a top student can choose a very selective private university or LAC for little or no cost premium. These schools will put you at close quarters with students from all over the country and the world, students who in many cases are selected not only for their high grades and scores, but also for other diverse experiences, interests and talents that most state universities barely consider.</p>
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Then you’re comparing it correctly.</p>
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Likewise, Caltech is a fraction of Berkeley…you’re not comparing apples to apples.</p>
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I’ll counter your anecdotal data with some anecdotal data of my own. I attended Berkeley in the late '90s-early '00s, certainly a “better” time than we’re having now, and my dorm included students from Boston, Louisiana, Colorado and Texas. I later lived in the International House and roomed with undergraduate students from Hong Kong and Venice, Italy. So, how’s that for “put[ting] you at close quarters with students from all over the country and the world, students who in many cases are selected not only for their high grades and scores, but also for other diverse experiences, interests and talents” that top research universities consider?</p>
<p>Considering the abysmal state of California’s public schools, of course, California would need to draw from other states to get top quality students. However, the majority of students in any state university system are going to come from that state. And the fact that a few of your fellow students came from other states means nothing. The same could be true for any student at any university, public or private, anywhere in the US.</p>
<p>I am so tired of all the California bashing… Sorry, but I really am. Our state is certainly experiencing some very difficult times right now, as are many in the country, but I still think it is one of the best places to live in the United States. Our universities are top notch and some very talented students come from our “abysmal” public schools. As for the comment about diversity in the student body, that was one of the things that drew my son to Berkeley. He could have gone just about anywhere, and Berkeley was his first choice. Not because he was in state and not because of cost. He chose Berkeley to study engineering in a vibrant and diverse atmosphere. Of course, this is all a matter of personal opinion, but I like living in California and all of my children received excellent public school educations and are attending, or will be attending, outstanding universities. I just couldn’t listen to the California bashing any longer…</p>
<p>It’s a great state, and though I am likely going to leave for college I could easily see my self going back after (Probably more Nor-Cal than So-Cal, but thats a different issue all together). but the UC’s are not having their brightest days right now, and that is the issue at hand.</p>
<p>I love California, but I think, at this point in my life, I should leave. That’s not to say I’ll never come back, its just that I feel the need to go to a new place, with new people ect. </p>
<p>I don’t think that’s relevant to the point, but what I’m trying to say is that when I bash California keep in mind that it is a part of me, and I will never say I hate the state as a whole.</p>
<p>^^^ That’s totally reasonable. I’m a 9th generation Californian (my kids are 10th) which is almost unheard of nowadays… I totally understand your need to get away. I just don’t like it when everyone talks about how awful it is here just because we going through a tough time as a state. The economy has hit many states hard, not just California, and I think the UC’s are still excellent academic institutions. We have challenges with immigration and the like, but the diversity is one of the things that makes our state great. I just want people to look at the good parts about California. Times won’t be bad forever. Things will get better… Best of luck.</p>
<p>Notice how the folks who complain the most about the “dire state” of the UC’s don’t attend any of them? So how would they know what they are talking about? They toss around factoids like “huge classes being taught by TA’s instead of real professors”, none of which are true. Tuition went up this year, but funding from the state has been restored for next year. And the tuition is still a lot cheaper than comparable schools across the country. And the last I looked, private universities had raised tuition by even more than the UC’s did.</p>
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<p>Does this means that personal opinions are only welcome if they espouse yours? Are people not entitled to an opinion that is not as rosy as baby cheeks? </p>
<p>Perhaps I am mistaken, but does this thread have anything to do with the quality of the public schools in California or for the willingness and desire of people to live in California? I thought the theme was all about the value of APPLYING to the UC as an Out of State Applicant. Have you considered that the people with the relevant opinions are NOT exactly residents of the great state of California? How can a resident of California who technically does not pay tuition (unless they renamed the fees to the more correct term tuition) cannot possibly evaluate the value to an OOS … correctly? And have you considered that the people who did NOT think the UC system represented a better value and refrained to apply might have a more … valid opinion than a resident’s? </p>
<p>Fwiw, do you think it is impossible for people to LOVE living in California, to have decided to spend half a decade getting an education in California, and still conclude that the UC undergraduate education is far from being a good … value for an OOS student? Well, I plead guilty! In my case, leaving Texas for a school such as Cal or UCLA would have made ZERO sense, as I could get a cheaper AND better education in Austin. Before you jump with the different rankings of Cal or UCLA versus the lower ranked UT, please remember that there are different admissions standards for engineering, business, and other majors at UT-Austin, as well as Honors College that have few equals. And, again, please try to look through the same lenses an OOS would wear! </p>
<p>As far as living, it is undeniable that California presents many great attributes, but there are sizeable negatives that people with long term roots tend to ignore. For instance, do you think it is easier to start a business or a family in California than in Texas, especially for someone who has to count solely on his own education and earning power? Where would one be better off with a gross salary of $90,000? In San Francisco or in Austin or Dallas? I think you can find many answers to similar queries in a comprehensive and recent article in the Economist. </p>
<p>In my opinion --here we go again-- California is decades away from reverting to its past glory, and may very well never succeed in doing that. There are no solutions to the systemic deficiencies of the State, and there won’t be perpetual stimulus and bailout money to shore up leaking coffers. To people who believe the UC will magically get a clean bill of health, I say … best of luck! </p>
<p>At the end of the day, there are VERY valid reasons why the UC system is overwhelmingly a system that answers to the needs and desires of its state constituents. And that is why the UC is not different from other state systems, and this despite repeated attempts to pretend it’s more than the sum of its parts.</p>
<p>noimagnition
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<p>Like I said if you’re rich 50k per year does not even matter. Price matters mostly to poor students. If you like Berkeley and you can afford it easily; I don’t see any reason for suppressing yourself of not going there. If you’re looking for a sports car because you need one and you like Porsche and you can afford it, then go buy one. Don’t buy Porsche if you like Ferrari instead. It does not make sense.</p>
<p>hawkette
Berkeley is more expensive than Duke if you’re OOS. Yield is also an operation of scholarship grants and / or cost. Duke provides scholarship grants to OOS. Berkeley does not. And I don’t think Berkeley lost those qualified eng’g students to Duke. Those qualified students have most likely gone to MIT or Stanford or Harvard or Princeton instead. If cost would be the same for both Berkeley eng’g and Duke eng’g, it’s hard to justify on going to Duke eng’g instead. Duke eng’g is far less prestigious than Berkeley’s, and the highly qualified eng’g wannabes are fully aware of that.</p>
<p>drax12
I understand what you’re saying but consider this.</p>
<p>Berkeley grads – on average - don’t only make more than Brown grads do, but - on average - they also make more than Columbia grads, and Columbia is located right at the heart of NY, the world’s center of banking and finance. If you think location is a huge factor, then explain to me why Dartmouth made it to number one beating grads from HYPSM.</p>
<p>xiggi, if you don’t think a Berkeley education is worth it for OOS then the more that there is no reason to attend Claremont McKenna for OOS. We can go around and tell every OOS student out there to just apply to HYPSM + Caltech, Dartmouth and Wharton.</p>
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<p>Shows how little you actually know, RML. But you have plenty of excuses, starting with being abroad and not having the slightest experience or knowledge about schools in California, except what you can grab on the internet.</p>
<p>That’s what you do best, xiggi - talk to other posters personality instead of the issue at hand. And what do you know xiggi? You’re only from McKenna. lol</p>
<p>Again, if you think Berkeley is not worth for OOS, then almost all universities in America (save for HYPSM, Caltech, Dartmouth and Wharton) are NOT worth for OOS as well. Unless they’ll give a scholarship stick with your State’s best public university.</p>
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<p>You should try to read your own posts: you direct two post to me and both times you feel compelled to introduce an institution I did not mention in this thread, and very rarely in general. On the other hand, I offered an example how an OOS might look at another public school. By the way, please tell us what was the issue at hand? </p>
<p>As far as we know, RML, let’s just leave it at that we have very different real life contacts with selective schools in California. Please do not hesitate to correct my assumption that you have spent very little --if any-- time of the schools you speak endlessly about, let alone attended any of them.</p>
<p>Xiggi - I was directly responding to the bashing of California public schools which is precisely what Berkeley is. And if you read any of my other posts, I responded directly as to whether or not I thought it was worth it to apply to Berkeley. I’ve never brought up rankings or anything of the sort. Yet you seemed to imply that I would throw that in your face. You come across as a very angry person and I don’t see any value in responding to your post at all. To each his own.</p>