<p>TheGFG, really–what do you want? I don’t understand why you are so defensive about your kids going to elite schools when you claim to believe with your whole heart that they are the only way to ensure success. As do many other people on this site–if you want to reassure yourself, look at the number of posts in any of the Ivy forums versus that for Point Park or SUNY-Purchase or whatever.</p>
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<p>That’s just her thing. I wouldn’t take it personally. </p>
<p>You have to let people have their thing. </p>
<p>If you do care too much about what the neighbors think? Nobody is going to suffer from that except you. I hope your kids are having luck with the job hunt.</p>
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<p>SomeOldGuy – Thanks for the laugh. I’m with you.</p>
<p>Sally- it has clearly bought you the ability to not care about your children’s pursuit of their dreams, whether or not they allow them to monetize the expense of their college educations. And I’m not being critical- me too. We were full pays, told our kids that we would pay for 8 semesters at the college of their choice as long as they held up their part of the bargain by taking advantage of every opportunity that came their way (EC, listening to Tony Blair debate Ann Coulter, having lunch when a professor invited them to, etc. Not just academic opportunities, and not related to making money when they graduated.)</p>
<p>But I am humble enough to realize that MY social capital (H first in his family to go to college, me first generation American but we both attended the allegedly elite schools for both undergrad and grad) allowed me to give my kids choices that the kids fresh off the boat don’t get to have. A kid in my town who is the only person in the household who speaks English and has to take grandma to her medical appointments and take grandpa to the local Community Chest office to get a voucher for new eyeglasses isn’t being told to go to college and “find himself”. Heck, he doesn’t have time for EC’s in HS let alone college. He’s being told to get into Harvard, get himself to med school (regardless of whether this is a good plan, the right plan, a do-able plan… that’s what the family is working towards) and fulfill their version of the American dream. If I sat them down and told them that they should ignore all the “hype” and that Denison and St. Olaf’s and Lawrence and Beloit and Rhodes are fantastic colleges and a smart kid can really excel there and end up as chairperson of the neurology department at any medical school in the country… well, that would be a fun conversation.</p>
<p>THAT’s social capital. Not buying a house in a fancy neighborhood (these days if you have the scratch, you’re in). Social Capital is knowing which rules you can break and which ones you can’t. Social Capital is knowing that “pulling strings” won’t get your kid into Yale Medical School. Social Capital is knowing that “pulling strings” CAN get your kid out of college prep bio into AP bio at the local HS (call the guidance counselor and pitch a fit) but of course, you need to know how the game is played in order to game the system.</p>
<p>I had a college friend whose father was CEO of a Fortune 500 Industrial company. She was always broke. She dressed like a hobo. She decided not to write an honors thesis because “who will ever care”. She was brilliant and hard-working, but it strikes me that it was the scions of either self-made wealth or old families who had the luxury of deciding what they could get away with. The rest of us were learning the rules.</p>
<p>Are elite colleges worth it? This is an age old question and one I have been pondering over myself lately. I am currently choosing between Berkeley and HKUST for CS (engineering). Berkeley is more prestigious, but will cost me twice as much.</p>
<p>I know people say that prestige only matters for Grad school. At an undergrad level, all that matters is that one should do well, regardless of where he goes.</p>
<p>I recently did some research and posted this thread.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/1496714-undergrad-cs-starting-salaries-why-huge-difference-between-colleges.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/1496714-undergrad-cs-starting-salaries-why-huge-difference-between-colleges.html</a></p>
<p>CS majors from MIT, Stanford and CMU have an average starting salary of 90k while those from Drexel and Purdue make about 60k. There is a 30k difference in salaries. Shouldn’t that be enough to pay off whatever extra debt the elite institution may incur? </p>
<p>Talking about doing well in college, the highest pay for Purdue was 85k, still lesser than the average for elite institutions at 90k.
Not to mention that students from elite colleges have a better shot at the big guns for Graduate school.</p>
<p>SomeOldGuy, you crack me up. :D</p>
<p>Even though you are my sworn enemy for the rest of your life, you need to read “To Hate Like This is to be Happy Forever”</p>
<p>So great! It’s from the perspective of a Tarheel, but you will appreciate the humor.</p>
<p>I love that book and can only imagine what Will Blythe could have accomplished had he gone to a better school. ;)</p>
<p>oohhhhh. I am laughing out loud. :p</p>
<p>It goes both ways. Some reporters once asked Lefty Driesell whether he was bothered by all the stuff the student section would yell at him when Maryland played down in Durham, and he answered, “Well, I don’t even understand most of it . . . I didn’t go to a very good school.” </p>
<p>(Now, go hit Wikipedia and see where Lefty did his undergrad.)</p>
<p>Yes, very funny. But we don’t care about the Terps anymore with their crazy underarmour uniforms. ;)</p>
<p>Isn’t it largely irrelevant for a middle-aged person to view himself or herself, or their work-associates, as example that “college prestige” isn’t important careerwise in today’s white-collar executive-track “first job” employment market? Yes of course there are many examples of white-collar middle-management upper-middle-income folks who’ve experienced “career success” with their local college or state university degree. I don’t think anyone’s arguing the point. People attend Ivy schools and the other high-ranking schools with the intention to eventually become a “high-flier”, a person of true influence, and/or a prominent player in their field. It’s not just about the hunt for a “good job”.</p>
<p>But it seems silly to deny that a stereotypical strong undergrad student at HYP has a likely advantage over the stereotypical strong undergrad at the typical middling state university in the competition for “outstanding first job opportunities”. Look at Facebook’s Sheryl Sandberg’s full resume, and you realize that “doors have been opened” for this Ivy grad that a UIUC or Northeastern student will not likely experience - ever. The Ivy degree buys absolute access to unusual opportunities, strong alumni networks, a dynamic overachiever environment, and a rubberstamp “you’re smart” reputation. Not even exalted Loren Pope would deny market power of an Ivy diploma coupled with a high GPA and persuasive references/referrals. The expected $50,000/year job as a generic corporate pool accountant or engineer for a college grad doesn’t automatically translate as a “great job” long-term; it just means that the grads’ immediate skill set warrants a certain starting salary pay.</p>
<p>Not all high school students are qualified for Ivy-caliber colleges, and the relative “underachiever” legacy or connected students that gain entry at these schools are in all likelihood still well-qualified. (Go look at the legacy applicant stats) Our kids won’t qualify, but I don’t begrudge the students who are, and I won’t diminish the relative boost that Ivy diploma will give those students. However, IF my child was accepted at an Ivy, AND IF we could reasonably afford it, I would certainly want my child to benefit from that enriching and exotic experience too.</p>
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<p>WHAT? What does this even mean? We are not full-pay. There is no family money. Our kids have worked through high school and will be on their own after college. Their “dreams” have to involve self-sufficiency and practicality. Please stop making assumptions about that which you know nothing.</p>
<p>SomeOldGuy – There is no better school. 
But I still liked your basketball league comment anyway.</p>
<p>I actually think everyone here basically agrees. What I contest is those that claim that are entirely uneffected. Your posts here suggest the opposite. You’re interesting in defending and claiming a certain stance. Always analyze what is not said. That is where you often learn the most. Notice how easily Harvard and Yale roll onto the page, and these other fine schools where kids are going are not named.</p>
<p>I don’t like the New England elitism (and I’m in New England") so I’ve pushed the Midwest, but at the same time I’ve really endorsed the unpretentious and yet elite Midwest. I don’t want to be snob but I still want to be a snob. I love someone hasn’t heard of a school and then I know they will later realize I like something even cooler than they do.</p>
<p>Just like anxiety, anger, happiness, resentment, etc, there are none of us who don’t have narcissism. The key as in most things is how we manage it.</p>
<p>Wow…just wow. Didn’t know I would become the subject of psychoanalysis when I gamely answered your questions. I’m out.</p>
<p>As poetgrl would say, carry on.</p>
<p>“Really–what do you want?” Well, sally, for one thing you can drop the exasperated tone when addressing me. If you are frustrated by my opinion, then I suppose you could just let me “have my thing” as poetgrl suggests. Or is that tolerance only extended to one side of the argument? Secondly, you can remember the old adage about the pot calling the kettle black. Before you call me defensive, I think you should look in the mirror.</p>
<p>Check out Sonia Sotomayor’s biography for illustrations of the impact of Princeton and Yale on one person’s life</p>
<p>I didn’t know she had a biography. She is very interesting. Is it well written?</p>
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This is a pretty nasty thing to say. THat somebody doesn’t care about their children pursuing their dreams. I thnk sally is just saying she thinks it should be THEIR dreams, whatever they are. I’m sure just about everybody on here feels that way about their kids. </p>
<p>I’ve written about my own struggles with my stepkid. His dad basically abandoned him and his mom when he was a baby. For financial reasons, his mom took him away from his native country, friends, and extended family when he was 10. When I met his mom he had a tremendous chip on his shioulder. He’s a very smart kid (I can’t beat him in chess) but barely graduated high school because we just couldn’t get him to care. </p>
<p>It’s a pretty high raniking affluent high school, full of Asian kids, many of whom attend elite colleges. We tried everything, believe me. He gave his counselor fits, she was a saint getting him through. Obviously, what any of the other parents thought about him or me was the least of my worries (A couple work with me actually, and they are really classy people who were always encouraging. So i don’t understand all the nasty neighbor stuff either. ) I’m pretty sure he graduated last or near last in his class, and barely avoided the continuation school that he didn’t want to attend.</p>
<p>So obviously his mom and I had to modify any dreams we might have had for him. We’re just glad he hung around and went to CC and now has a reasonable job that he enjoys. I’m sure lots of people have experiences like this - maybe not on college confidential but IRL I’m sure of it. And I’ll repreat - he has a reasonable job. If he gets appropriate certifications to work say in the gas or power industry he’ll make an excellent living doing something he likes. There are many paths.</p>
<p>Poetrgrl - yes, it’s very readable though I haven’t finished it yet. I did see her interviewed about it and she comes across both in interviews and in the book as thoughtful and tremendously caring. She stops short of her experiences on the bench, I think because the point of the book is to serve as an example for young people who may not see themselves as able to rise out of difficult circumstances. She had a lot of strikes against her - poverty, tensions in family relationships, an alcoholic father who died when she was young, and she was an insulin dependent diabetic from an early age. It was simultaneously published in Spanish. highly recommend, now if I can just finish it before its due back at the library.</p>