Maybe. But it isn’t irrelevant when that person knows their industry well, and knows who is getting hired at entry level and what impact the undergrad institution has on that hiring, and how the career path and advancement work today in that industry. And it isn’t irrelevant when that person hires entry level people. Of course, all of this is anecdotal on both sides anyway. You don’t know me, I don’t know anybody on here personally.</p>
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Neither does an Ivy education. You aren’t claiming that, are you? Because if we are talking salary here, there are studies on the long term salary of grads, and there’s really not that much difference. Some sure, but not that much. The first job is a foot in the door from which the person makes their career. Once again, IMO there is almost certainly a financial benefit to attending an elite school long term, just not as much in the mean as people might think. Of course, as people have discussed ad nauseum on CC, there are other tangible and intangible benefits too. </p>
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It is silly. THat’s why I, for one, never claimed this. On the flip side, I don’t like any wild exaggeration about the benefit of attending, or more importantly the detriment of not attending an elite school.</p>
<p>finalchild and blossom, in catching up with this thread, it seems that you are missing a significant point. It has been championed by Sally, but is true for many families. Their kids do not want to go to an “elite school.”</p>
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<p>This seems to infer that the student didn’t get into any “better” schools and seems to discount the fact that, for what ever reason, it WAS the best school for that child, their number one choice.</p>
<p>My son is a perfect example. We did the East Coast swing, visiting 9 schools. There were two Ivies in the mix. Of the 9, by far and away his choice was the least selective, a school that accepts 57% of its applicants. He didn’t like either of the Ivies and won’t be applying. He does have the stats to be in the hunt to get into the more selective schools. Otherwise we wouldn’t have been on the visit list.</p>
<p>The point is, his choice for the school that’s best, and I can’t disagree with his choice, does not comport with what many here would say is the best. If he ends up there and I sing its praises in any way, it will be because it was the ideal fit for my child, not to make myself feel better about some final compromise. </p>
<p>Lastly, the comment about not caring about a child’s dreams is just silly. First, we all know that it’s in the nature of parents to care. More pointedly though, it assumes that the child did dream of something they were denied. It completely denies the fact that many of them just don’t dream of the same things that are important to many posters on this forum, not because it’s unrealistic and unreachable, but because, and this may be difficult to comprehend, THEY DON’T WANT IT.</p>
<p>Re the Sotomayor book: The “60 Minutes” interview with her the week the book came out also was pretty good. I’m not sure if CBS News archives their stuff, but it is worth a look.</p>
<p>I care about my kids far more than I care about their dreams.</p>
<p>The difference is I want them to be confident, healthy and competent to make their own dreams come true but I feel no obligation to hand them their dreams on a platter.</p>
<p>It’s their character and tenacity that I lose sleep over and work hardest to develop.</p>
<p>This is the root of many a gerrymandering that takes place throughout our society. It is at the root of the FA structure, AA,IEP 504 plans. Somehow we have gotten the concept of equal access/opportunity confused with equal outcome. Yes, we are all different. And the only possible outcome of everyone being different is that some WILL be better than others. But, this is not okay to say out loud.</p>
<p>Given all things being equal (which they never are)…I’d take HYP etc over CSU San Bernardino any day of the week. But, right now things in the $$$ are soooooo not equal. And that’s the center point of discussion upon which this thread was started. </p>
<p>The middle class has been ‘unequaled’ out of subsidizes for the elite non-merit granting institutions. The savers/planners/sock it under the mattress for kiddles college people have been unequaled out of FA. It is what it is…</p>
<p>It seems that the differential between full pay at X and merit given at Y can be can easily be 200K - or more. For the average family that is a HUGE difference.</p>
<p>You can say that out loud. Why can’t you say it out loud?</p>
<p>My experience, as a well educated woman with an elite grad degree, married to a well-educated man with an elite grad degree, working in an allegedly elite field blah, blah, blah…
is that it isn’t actually always the most academically gifted who do the best work in the real world.</p>
<p>Sometimes an elite degree will give an opportunity to try. It won’t give success. Some people stop out at success while still in school, and some kids who are not gifted at all in school are quite amazingly talented in the world. </p>
<p>The mistake is to equate academic success with world success. It won’t necessarily happen. </p>
<p>Some of us know that it takes more than elite school diplomas to actually be successful. But, that said, there is no reason someone shouldn’t get their kid the best education they can reasonably afford. Anyone who says education doesn’t matter isn’t being honest.</p>
<p>Like everything it is a grayer issue. A better statement might be “elite school education isn’t the only thing that matters, and isn’t the thing that matters most, but it does help.”</p>
<p>Yes, but a Sheryl Sandberg go-getter would have been successful no matter if she had gone to her state flagship, because … well … she’s a go-getter. And yes, some opportunities are open to Ivy and similar grads that aren’t open to others. But so? So then they pursue other opportunities. It’s hardly as though there aren’t other opportunities out there. Unless we want to devolve into the yawn-fest of “but they won’t get to be investment bankers on Wall Street,” as if anyone with any sophistication believes that’s the ultimate, most meaningful, or best-paying job.</p>
<p>Well, I am getting word now on where a lot of students and families are picking the colleges for next year. The most elite colleges, the HPY et al seem to be getting the nod even if there are free rides, generous awards elsewhere, even to schools that are in the top 25 National group of US News & World Report No one picking Northeastern, Fordham, Rochester, GW for the merit over Harvard and Columbia full pay. But a lot of hedging about paying for those private schools that cost $60K+ and are more highly “rated” than other less expensive choices. Half price at St Joe’s or Scranton over full price at Holy Cross or off to a SUNY is often the choice. These are families that are getting very little or no financial aid anywhere.</p>
<p>The 60 Minutes interview was great. I also was able to see her tape a local show, and she was just fabulous. Really thoughtful and kind. Said she asks tough questions on the bench because she wants to give you that chance to make your best argument.</p>
<p>It’s not irrelevant when we’re still the ones hiring the young-uns and we know that what makes success in the business world is the person in front of you, not the name on the resume. That’s not to say elite schools don’t provide you with a nice “smart stamp” that non-elite schools don’t. </p>
<p>But for goodness sakes, don’t you people ever know any business owners who went to “eh” schools who are wildly successful AND working for themselves and don’t have to answer to anybody and can send their kids wherever they want, whether that’s Harvard full-pay or Kansas to enjoy basketball? Honestly I know just as many of “those types” – if not more – than people who are wealthy through “conventional” HYP-type paths.</p>
<p>I think we’re all invested in our kid’s dreams. Isn’t that why almost all of us on here, posting like crazy, reacting to what others say, feeling supported, feeling insulted, defending choices, advocating that the school does matter, advocating that there are great schools where you may even get a better education because the fit is so good and because it really is a great school even though “less elite”…???</p>
<p>I just don’t buy when folks deny that they don’t flinch at all, that they don’t have to actually work at being a bigger, more enlightened person. Sorry.</p>
<p>For entertainment purposes only, not claiming this is representative of anything.
PS - I only know about this because I knew people form this place, and I’ve been to their "“ranch”. Back in the hippie days.</p>
<p>Also, not sure if posting this is against TOS. I assume it’ll get deleted if it is.</p>
<p>Sally, I did not mean that you didn’t care about your kids dream and apologies if I very clumsily stated what I meant. My point was that some of us get to be in positions where we can encourage and foster our kids dream- regardless of whether it puts that kid in a position to support a large extended family, help a younger sib through college, etc. I got to tell my kids “Go find yourself in college” because I am not relying on them to fund my retirement. I am sure Sally cares very much about her kids dreams- and how wonderful it is to be in Sally’s position in life so that her kids dreams can come first. I have no idea if the immigrant kid in my community who is being groomed to become a doctor wants to be a doctor or even can stand touching another person. By the time he’s got his own kids, he’ll be able to tell them to become a poet or a dancer or a speech therapist. But that’s not what his own family is telling him- and frankly, from their position at the bottom rung of American society, I can’t blame them.</p>
<p>I didn’t want my kids to look at their college educations as a means to a paycheck. (even though they needed to be self supporting once they graduated.) To me, college isn’t trade school. But it’s just being willfully elitist to proclaim that other people should feel the same way.</p>
<p>2 days ago there was yet another suicide of a student at our “top” high school. That makes 5 recent suicides of students at this “pressure cooker” high school where almost everyone loads up on APs and stresses over getting into a top college. Please, parents, tell your kids it’s going to be ok! It’s ok if they get a B or fail a test. It’s ok if they don’t get into an “elite” college or their first choice college. It’s ok if they go to an “average” college or a community college or even don’t go to college at all - they can live happy and successful lives even without being perfect! Make sure your kids know you are will love them and support them no matter what, and that they are special and valuable regardless of which college they may attend.</p>
<p>I agree. But we’re not talking here about the immigrants who don’t have two nickels to rub together who believe (mistakenly) that Harvard is the Golden Ticket to all that is shiny and successful in America. We’re talking about upper-middle class people who are caught up in some belief that there are only 8 (or some other small number) of universities that could POSSIBLY be worth attending, who are caught up in impressing the neighbors with their choices, and who care passionately what the other mommies say at soccer practice. Why shouldn’t I critique that type of culture? Look, the ultimate example of that culture was an old thread in which a poster named newmassdad told about how his daughter was hurt because she had to slum it at the U of Chicago when all her classmates were going to HYPSM and you know, the other people in town felt that schools like Rice / Wellesley / U of Chicago were all also-rans so of course his daughter hd to think that way too, and she was only redeemed when she won (I don’t remember, a Rhodes, a Fulbright, whatever). Why should that culture not be scorned, and those who buy into it mocked?</p>