<p>What if the situation is not so extreme financially? Full ride to OSU (honors & eminence fellow) vs 5,000-7,000/year in loans at Penn? Biochem major then med school</p>
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<p>To be clear, the graduate school I’m going to is ranked around number 30 in my field. In my case, it is actually very similar to going from CalTech to Ohio State for chemical engineering, and not at all like going from CalTech to the University of Minnesota for chemical engineering. My potential advisors are well regarded, but then, it seems like that’s the case at a lot of schools.</p>
<p>We looked at the whole thing differently. Rather than trying to decide which school was worth more than another, we gave our kids a dollar amount, which was what we could barely pay for their college and then let them choose what they wanted… If it turned out to be a situation where they truly wanted a school over that amount, we would have seen what we could have done after looking at the reasons for paying that kind of overage of what we could afford. But for us it did not happen. I think that it is worth paying a premium IF IT IS AFFORDABLE, will not cause financial damages, for a school that a student wants. The atmosphere, the other students there, getting away, the sports teams, the life in general, all are things that go into the equation. My kids were not interested in the “elite” issue, much to my chagrin, as I would have liked for them to have put a little more of that into their considerations, as it does mean something to me, more than it means to them.</p>
<p>It can make a difference where you go to school. Though it’s great to be in the company of all of you who look at the candidate in front of you and not let the school name sway you, it can make a difference in any number of situations. </p>
<p>One of the bluntest assessments I read about was when one of the Supreme Court justices flat out said that the valedictorian of Ohio State Law school would not get a clerkship with the Supreme Court. Just would not. Has to be from one of the very top law schools to have even a shot at it. And look at where the sitting justices all went to law school. Yes, it 's law school, but this attitude does show up in other areas for UG schools too. </p>
<p>However, most of the time, over time, it will not matter. The kid who was accepted to Harvard but chose to go elsewhere will rise like cream to the level of most Harvard peers. That’s what the numbers have shown, and I do believe this. In fact, for a good many jobs, going to a local state school is much more helpful in landing a position. Want to teach? The local state “teacher’ college” is where to go . Most of those hiring are alums from there. That’s what those schools do best and they will take fine care of you if you get the grades there. The guy from Harvard will be behind you in that line, and maybe not even be able to get into that line at all.</p>
<p>Sweetiepi
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<p>FWIW…at a recent Senior College decision night the head college counselor at S’ HS stated the maximum loan amount she advises is 30K…or the cost of a good Honda. I haven’t followed up with her on the supporting logic so I don’t have any more details. This was, however, the first hard and fast amount I’d heard stated in such a clear manner.</p>
<p>I believe that $30K loan amount is slightly above but close to the Stafford Student Loan amount.</p>
<p>he benefit of elite parchment is often purported to be access to certain careers…as such…</p>
<p>Are we asking ourselves and our sons and daughters the wrong – or maybe just too limited –of a question? Instead of status parchment to loan value, instead of what college experience is the right/best/challenging, instead of LAC vs. public vs. private, top 10, top 20 or top 100 vs ‘lower’ ranked – should we be asking our young adults the following:</p>
<p>In a few years when the college experience is just a memory – how do you want to be LIVING YOUR LIFE?</p>
<p>College is 4 years – maybe a few additional for ‘extended stays’ and grad school. The point being, the college experience is really only a small portion of a lifetime. The after college phase is – with any luck – much, much, much longer.</p>
<p>Do they want/desire/have the drive to put in 90+ hour workweeks for years on end to achieve a financial or status goal many years down the line. Do they want to go down a passion/career path, which will require their energy and presence during weekends, holidays and family events as a predictable requirement for success? Do they wish to conscientiously pursue a dream, which will leave them in debt with no reasonably predicable path to relieving themselves of the burden? And, if there is a debt load after graduation, how long are they willing to postpone parts of the next phases of their lives for the privilege of the specific college experience.</p>
<p>And from the parents’ perspective…is it guilt driving us to feel obligated to purchase something which puts us at financial risk. How susceptible have we become, without even knowing, to all the marketing efforts around us.</p>
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<p>Honestly, I highly doubt someone competitive from Harvard would be passed over for someone from the local school. At least not at my small high school (where about 1/2 of the teachers have a degree from the local teacher college, and 1 teacher has a Harvard degree).</p>
<p>“One of the bluntest assessments I read about was when one of the Supreme Court justices flat out said that the valedictorian of Ohio State Law school would not get a clerkship with the Supreme Court. Just would not. Has to be from one of the very top law schools to have even a shot at it.”</p>
<p>I thought that was an interesting statement. Maybe the following link helps put it into context. </p>
<p>[Shedding</a> Tiers - ABA Journal](<a href=“http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/shedding_tiers]Shedding”>Shedding Tiers)</p>
<p>BTW - this type of elitism isn’t accepted in engineering. It’s about what you know, not about where you went to school.</p>
<p>It’s all dependent on socioeconomic status.</p>
<p>*Quote:</p>
<h1>But that’s the point, all other things won’t be equal.</h1>
<p>Then why go to school at all?
*</p>
<p>Huh???</p>
<p>Re: [Shedding</a> Tiers - ABA Journal](<a href=“http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/shedding_tiers]Shedding”>Shedding Tiers)</p>
<p>But isn’t it generally thought that good law jobs (not just clerking at the Supreme Court) tend to be very dependent on the prestige of one’s law school?</p>
<p>My S’s situation with one week to decide:
-Choice down to Yale, Stanford and USC Mork Scholar.
-Yale offering FA of $5,345, which leaves $55,555. S would do work study.
-Stanford offering FA of $10,898, which leaves $50,688. S would do work study.
-USC offering merit Mork and University Scholarships totaling $52,602, which leaves $9,993. Part of the scholarship is a $5,000 stipend which we would have S use for his expenses and eliminate need to work. This would put the family cost to $14,993.
-If money was not an issue, S would select Yale (dream school and loved Bulldog Days).
-S impressed with USC, but concerned with overall seriousness of students.
-For family, money is an issue. Family would have to make serious sacrifices to come up with $25,000 per year which leaves ~$31K in annual loans for Yale or ~$26K in annual loans for Stanford. That would leave a 4 year total of ~$100-$125K of debt, with no adjustments for tuition increases.
-USC would not require any debt.
-Child 2 will start college in 2015.
-Yale Light Fellowship may allow for one less year of paying Yale while abroad (making 3 years of debt=$93K).
-S intends to study East Asian Languages and get a PhD to work as a professor, or work abroad for the government or an NGO.</p>
<p>This scenario seems right on point with this thread. Thoughts?</p>
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<p>The person claimed that every person is different, and thus education is not a deciding factor - “all other things won’t be equal”. If that is the case, then why even bother going to school? If the person is just as good in those other things, then why bother going to school in the first place? What the person misses is that what school you go to does make a difference in those other things.</p>
<p>One could argue that if there are two otherwise equal candidates, then maybe you should pick the person that went to the worse school. They were better at using what they were given, and potentially could go much farther. I could see that point.</p>
<p>But, it is more likely that the person that went to the better school will have other things that make them better so that the school they went to won’t ever become a deciding factor.</p>
<p>But, like the comment from the Supreme Court justice … Sometimes the first cut, especially with new grads that don’t have anything on their resume, is education. When the Supreme Court is getting thousands of applications for 20 jobs, education is an easy first cut.</p>
<p>mmDad1965 - USC is your choice. You can’t afford 2 other schools. Did you run your numbers before he applied to those schools? I am sure your son will find students who are just as serious as he is about academic at USC.</p>
<p>Articles like that and the facts behind them, are why many people still believe that it’s worth paying for the prestige of the “elite” schools. D, a Stanford student, just got a summer internship. Guess where the only other 2 interns they hired come from? Harvard. It’s not that there aren’t equally smart students at lower-ranked schools, nor that those smart students can’t find great opportunities and achieve career success. The issue is the ease of securing those opportunities and the value of earning a degree which carries no barriers to that success.</p>
<p>For years, I have been a proponent of sending top kids that could get into ivy schools to top state and other good schools that will give them a full ride UNLESS the ivy or semi ivy gives them great aid. Let’s face it, having an extra $200,000 in life for home purchases or business investments, graduate or professional school, or even as a reserve for contingencies, can REALLY be beneficial. This point becomes particularly important if the kid or family has to take out large student loans for undergraduate studies.
I do understand the concept of why a family would choose to pay for elite college costs. However, more often than not, I have found that parents really can’t afford this. This dramatically affects their retirement. In fact, an old study showed that 4% of those who retired at age 65 were able to have the same standard of living that they had before retirement. The rest had to either continue working, reduce their standard of living or live on some form of charity. There sadly has been numerous articles in Miami newspapers of couples having to live on dog food because they couldn’t afford to live on their retirement. I understand making a sacrifice for our kids, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of substantially diluting our retirement life style. If you have more than enough cash and/ or income, sure, send them to the elite school. However, even then, I think giving them the tuition money for their future while they get a free ride to State U would be the better option.</p>
<p>@mmDad1965. USC. It shouldn’t even be an issue.</p>
<p>The vast majority of the Unites States live and work in places and fields where the degree is what matters. Not so much where it came from. </p>
<p>Re Law School - In the current hiring climate, while which school you may graduate from matters, where you graduate in the class matters as well. I am not sure a law school graduate from a top school but the bottom of the class is any better off than similarly ranked grads from lower ranked law schools.</p>
<p>mmDad1965: USC for sure. Would he be in the honors program? Make sure he connects early with professors in his field of interest. From what I have heard, they will do a good job making sure his needs are met. And remember it’s all about grad school, which your child will need if he plans to get a PhD. He can go to Yale, Harvard, Stanford or wherever then if he does well at USC, which he should–especially not having to work!</p>
<p>All this discussion “we won’t pay for expensive prestige schools; my kid can go to state school” is interesting because it reflects a certain parental disregard, or perhaps blindness, to the state of corporate business and institutional career paths. “School choice” does now matter, significantly, for certain white-collar professions and career ambitions. Past history success stories about the “CEO who attended podunk college” aren’t relevant anymore. The “high-flier” career world has changed dramatically, and the “price of entry” is steep.</p>
<p>I once thought we operated as a meritocracy, where the best and the brightest were recognized and rewarded. I now realize our “best and brightest” may be eventually promoted to ranks of middle-management and upper-middle-class status, but that fast-tracked individuals are often already connected and polished candidates from upper-income households who attended prestigious colleges and whose families (fathers usually) offer great connections. I see this time and again in our own large Midwest city; the upper-income parents might have attended state schools but their kids attend the best school they can possibly be leveraged into acceptance with intention that familial business connections will leverage them further.</p>
<p>That unconnected middle-class Midwest kid who attends UIUC or UWis-Madison NOW will have a much harder time competing with the connected upper-class kid with equivalent major and career interests who attended an Ivy school, or a preppy New England college with similar profile, or Stanford or Northwestern or UoChicago, etc, no doubt.</p>