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I disagree with this. The top-ranked schools don’t exactly have an identifiable “bottom of the class” except for the very few students who get poor grades.</p>
<p>Hunt, I can’t speak to current hiring practices in law but I can assure you that where you stand in the class is made very clear and being at the top is a huge boost. I understand though that the very top schools are now offering tuition forgiveness or subsidies to those who cannot find employment or who take lower paying jobs.</p>
<p>@higgins2013</p>
<p>Do you have data to back up those claims?</p>
<p>I know here in the midwest, we don’t see too many Ivy grads and hiring managers don’t put a whole lot of weight into the school a degree came from. In fact I recently completed my MBA and before beginning I asked an upper division manager in my company if I should attend the respected and ranked program at our state flagship or a less demanding program that was less expensive at a smaller local school and was directly told it made absolutely no difference. My own personal bias still led me to go to the state flagship because I thought it would transfer better to other markets, but honestly I have absolutely no proof that it would have made any difference.</p>
<p>My dad is one of those C-suite executives that attended a lesser known school that you speak of. He’s the CFO at a small, but global midwestern business. Owns 2 homes, has money to travel extensively, pays cash for his cars. He did his undergrad at Ball State (Muncie, IN) and his part-time MBA at Depaul (Chicago). Now if he’d been a life long employee of his corporation and climbed his way up the ladder, I might say your argument carried some weight. But he was laid off from his former position about 10 years ago when the business was trimming middle management positions and got his current position, in his more mature years, after several months of unemployment, with his current degrees.</p>
<p>My son applied to one, meet full need, reach (MIT) and was deferred EA, but later rejected. Although he’d been accepted to several other top 10 engineering schools (Purdue, Georgia Tech, Rose Hulman), he opted to go to the school that gave him a full tutition merit scholarship. Now, just finishing his freshman year, he’s interviewed for 2 internships for this summer one of which he’ll begin right after he finishes his service trip to Ecuador. I really don’t think that paying $20-50,000/year more would have given him any more opportunities than he currently has.</p>
<p>I still maintain that the people in the “bottom” of the class at the top schools will still be viewed as very strong employment candidates unless they have very bad grades, especially when compared with people at the “bottom” of the class at lower-rated law schools.</p>
<p>Another thing: this may have changed since my day, but quite a few students at top law schools will have jobs sewn up (or nearly sewn up) long before it’s known where they will graduate in the class, because they will get offers from their summer employers.</p>
<p>Higgins, you are showing an east coast bias, even if you don’t live on the east coast.</p>
<p>In the parts of the country where there is actual job creation going on, NOT the east coast, by the way, there is no such corporate bias, and plenty of opportunity for a state school grad.</p>
<p>MMDad, USC made your decision easy, even though it is probably difficult for your son to give up Yale. Still, it’s not like he is choosing between podunk directional university and Yale. (Still a valid choice, by the way). USC has made a strong committment to academics recently. It’s an excellent university.</p>
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I don’t know what counts as a prestige school, but anybody who thinks a kid still can’t get a good job and advance up the ladder in California with a degree from USC, UCLA or Cal has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Especially USC. I work very near the financial district here in downtown LA and you only have to take a look at the bumper stickers and license plate frames to know what I’m talking about. And in my industry (energy related) it’s the same. Of course it helps to do well in school and get some experience, and nothing is guaranteed. But geez. You would think there are only a few thousand job openings each year.</p>
<p>And I don’t know why I even have to say this, but if you can go to MIT or Harvard or whatever and can afford it, of course you should go. But honestly, I get tired of reading nonsense. If your kid is at an Ivy League school why the obsession with proving to everyone how superior it is? Just be happy your kid is going to have some great opportunities.</p>
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<p>This is laughable. Employers in most of the country are not impressed with East Coast pedigrees, and they absolutely neither know nor care about “preppy New England colleges.” Just the category alone would be off-putting to people who believe the East Coast is full of pretentious strivers. </p>
<p>In most states outside the Northeast, state flagships are highly respected and the source of the strongest local and regional networks. My Northwestern degree has not brought me any benefit of connections in the Midwest (and I came from an upper-middle-class East Coast background).</p>
<p>higgins, what you are essentially saying is that having a rich, well-connected daddy is the most important thing. I agree that that can make a difference for a lot of kids who wouldn’t do as well otherwise. But if anything that works AGAINST your idea that the colleges they choose (Ivies, prestigious LACs, other elite privates) are that important., since in many cases these are not kids who would rise to the top otherwise.</p>
<p>As a life long left coaster I stumble over the ‘east coast’ bias on a range of topics. Admittedly, I have my own prejudice in regards to ‘the east coast mentality’. The limited exposure H and I have had parts ‘east’ has been both very pleasant and …um…humorous. (note…do NOT ask the Charlotte NC* antiques dealer if they have any J.R. Horner items…OH tsk tsk tsk…we don’t involve ourselves with that rather crass style…:))</p>
<p>That said, I will venture to say that many a west coast kid does not necessarily aspire to a Manhattan style life. My small number of east coast transplant friends who started their now 25yr + careers in CA are sending some of their CA born and raised kiddles back east. A number of these kids are having a hard time. Yes, yes…in a way it is good for them and they do, for the most part, adapt. However, it does seem like two different countries with very different mentalities…especially when it comes to elitism. </p>
<p>Now…back to the regular scheduled programming…I have to start purchasing the correct number of board shorts and flip flops S will need since he’s moving from the cooler part of the state (canvas jacket over a hoodie in the deep of winter) to the warmer part.</p>
<ul>
<li>if it is east of the Rockies…it is 'the East"</li>
</ul>
<p>When it comes to law school grads, there is not only an East Coast bias, but a New York City bias–and it probably is still true that to get a starting job at one of the big New York law firms it is pretty important to come from a top law school. As others have noted, that’s only a piece of the nationwide law puzzle–but it is a piece that does matter to some people quite a lot.</p>
<p>I think they just haven’t “invested” in their flagships in the northeast. I mean, there was a strong private school thing going on out there and those schools didn’t used to work towards geographical diversity, though they now do.</p>
<p>I suppose the northeast states will begin to invest more in their flagships, just even from the standpoint of more upper middle class kids attending and paying the tuition, since these days the cost benefit analysis puts the “elites” at prohibitive prices.</p>
<p>JMO</p>
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Agree…for law school grads who want to work in New York, Boston, DC, Philly, etc. Thousands of students who graduate from law school each year don’t.</p>
<p>Hunt: yes, spot on. Even us Westies know that to break into BIG LAW in BIG NYC it is necessary to have a elite law degree.</p>
<p>However, ask you kid if they want to spend their 20’s working 100 hour weeks. And then the next several decades working …oh …75/week.</p>
<p>I struck up a conversation with a young woman. We were both sitting by the pool at a spa in Mexico. It was her first vacation in many years and she wasn’t sure if she could stay the whole week. HBS MBA, working in NYC as a consultant in mergers and acquisitions. She has a one room apartment where she basically goes to change clothes…they have sleeping facilities at the offices. She is always on call. Her only friends are in the same industry because ‘you can only cancel out at the last minute so many times on people who do not understand the demands you work under’. No dating life, no time. Her employeer had paid for HBS so she now owed them 3 years (I think that was the time frame). They OWNED her. Her brother was an elevator repair specialist. He made a good deal of $$ and he had a good deal of free time. Maybe I was projecting…but she sounded wistful when describing his life. Her 20’s were almost gone and it looked like a part of her 30’s would be overtaken by career also.</p>
<p>My initial (and internal ) ooohhhh and ahhhh response to the pedigree was followed by an (again internal only) response of …that sounds like a definition of H*ll</p>
<p>I don’t know how to post a link, but there was an article in TheAtlantic.com, Relationships Are More Important Than Ambition, about a journalist Rod Dreher and moving back to his small-town life in Louisiana.</p>
<p>I want all the 20-somethings in my life to read it. Better to have choices than not to have them.</p>
<p>Wow. Great article. Some interesting points:</p>
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</p>
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</p>
<p>Here’s the link.</p>
<p>[Relationships</a> Are More Important Than Ambition - Emily Esfahani Smith - The Atlantic](<a href=“Relationships Are More Important Than Ambition - The Atlantic”>Relationships Are More Important Than Ambition - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>P.S. I just started a separate thread on this, since it’s taking the OP’s question a little off-track. Thanks for the idea, mom2kids2dogs.</p>
<p>Yes, great article. …</p>
<p>From Wikipedia: “white shoe firm is a sometimes racially/culturally tinted phrase used to describe leading professional services firms in the US, particularly firms that have been in existence for more than a century and represent Fortune 500 companies. It typically, but not always, refers to banking, law, and management consulting firms, especially those based in New York and Boston.”</p>
<p>We as parents might not embrace notion of “prestige college” as an important goal, but there are plenty of upper-income (upper-class) parents who do, who have college-aged children who intend to land a management consulting firm position at a “white shoe firm” after graduation. Several years ago, I recall reading in its alum mag that more than 1/3 of a typical Harvard College class would immediately head to Wall Street or consulting firms, while med school was not the stated goal for most graduates.</p>
<p>higgins, I have read similar statistics. The point is, those firms represent a very small minority of jobs for young college graduates. Read dietz’s story above. MOST people do not want the life that white-shoe lawyer has.</p>
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<p>The problem is you weren’t accepted into wharton. There is no guaranteeing you will be able to transfer into the 5 year MBA program. </p>
<p>So, how hard is it to actually do that transfer?</p>
<p>Right now, your question is whether you should go to UPenn and leave with 150K debt or go to spellman for free. If you don’t want to go to Spellman, take a gap year and reapply to places you can afford that you do want to go to. Do you have any idea what your monthly payments will be if you have 150K debt? </p>
<p>There aren’t a lot of fields that will allow you to pay that off and still have money for even one beer a month.</p>
<p>Here is a payment calculator <a href=“Mapping Your Future: Page not found”>http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/standardcalculator.htm</a></p>
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Yes. Probably 5,000 times on this website. Really, who cares? It’s a flea on the rear end of the job market. Or the front end if you prefer.</p>
<p>Sally… THANK YOU SOOO much for that article… I have been preaching that as far back as I can remember, but it is so good to see it in print!</p>