<p>Its not the kids who are messed up as much as their parents who are conned into paying full freight for “elite” educations. It never ceases to amaze me how some supposedly smart, successful people are so dumb when it comes to these decisions. If a kid is smart enough and ambitious enough to obtain his own patent, he would do that from podunk u just as easily. But you prestige folks … Its your money and your burden. Do what you want. Me, if my kid thinks its important to be perceived as a superstar (and hopefully i have taught her better values than that), she can go to an elite grad school where it might actually make a difference in her career trajectory.</p>
<p>“Its not the kids who are messed up as much as their parents who are conned into paying full freight for “elite” educations.”</p>
<p>^ This is just lovely. I choose to do whatever the heck I want to do with MY MONEY.</p>
<p>I agreed with one sentence of that.</p>
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<p>Unlike many of y’all, I’m not smart enough to tell other people what to do with their money. What I do wish, however, is that more people would go through the exercise that the pre-law advisor at my state school makes her students do. Before she will help them assemble recs, etc., she makes them create a spreadsheet that shows how different levels of debt will lead to monthly payments of $X, $Y, or $Z and how that compares to average salaries, car payments, and rents in the student’s targeted locale. After that, if the student WANTS to go into law with eyes wide open, my alma mater will advocate like heck for him or her.</p>
<p>Moving backward four years, I can’t tell a 17-year-old kid whether she should value the ability to drive a nicer car or live in a better apartment for the first ten years after graduation more than the psychic or other benefits of attending a more expensive school. But I can equip her to make the trade-off more rationally.</p>
<p>One of my relatives, an Ivy graduate, is happily married to a person who went to a much less “elite” school on full scholarship. They have been equally successful in the same career. They are both brilliant yet unpretentious, and they know how to relax and enjoy life. The only notable difference between them is gender. Neither education was “better” than the other as far as their career paths, but each enjoyed his/her college experience. Was that Ivy education worth it? In monetary terms, no. They both agree, however, that a chain of events dependent on the Ivy location caused them to meet one another, so their response would be a resounding “Yes!” :)</p>
<p>Personally, I wouldn’t go into debt for any school, including ones in the Ivy League, when our state (NC) has such fine public universities.</p>
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I’m not just talking about those UCs. We also hired people from the CSUs. THey’ll be making 100K within a few years. Not a fortune but okay. But that’s just my anecdote, so neither here nor there.</p>
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THat’s your argument? I know nothing about TCNJ but let’s assume you’re limiting it to comparing third tier state school to Princeton< I don’t know if you can quantify the degree of difference, but I’d say it’s pretty much a no-brainer that you would have a somewhat easier time getting a good job out of Princeton. That is not how your relentless posts on this come across, whether that is what you intend or not. Here is what you wrote, that I responded to -
Now if you really mean to refer only to the few state schol grads you know, and to not imply this applies in general, why post it? THe clear implication of this is that it is incredibly difficult if not impossible for any state school grad to get a job (and you don’t specify which state schools either). Hogwash, Nonsense. I don’t know how many ways I can say it.</p>
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<p>GFG, for every one of your “elite school” anecdotes, people can offer just as many from East State U and the like. Your personal filters seem to prevent you from believing this. You had said in an earlier post how so many of your kids’ “elite school” friends were having to go to grad school because they couldn’t find jobs. Now you are talking about “recouping their investment” when they have a more practical major. How about avoiding the “investment” (i.e., student debt) in the first place? That is the subject of this thread and the reason why many people make practical choices to attend the sorts of institutions you look down on. You are also trying to convince yourself (and us) that, even for careers in non-profits, the whole world agrees that a specialized degree from an Elite School is better than a degree from a state directional university. On what basis? Here’s a nice article from the WSJ that lays out a typical trajectory for someone who wants to work at a non-profit. It does not support your speculation at all. In fact, business majors are a common starting point for many who go into non-profit work, and most “elite” schools do not offer them. The article also says showing a genuine interest in the mission of the organization is critical, and that of course the best way to show that interest is to volunteer. A women’s studies major at Princeton does not have the edge over a Rutgers student who volunteers every weekend at a domestic-violence shelter–unless, of course, you’re the one doing the hiring.</p>
<p>[Nonprofits</a> ? Jobs, Best Degrees & Schools for a Career in Nonprofits - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703946504575470081491461608.html]Nonprofits”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703946504575470081491461608.html)</p>
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<p>Actually you not only can, but you should. A 17 year old is not nearly mature enough to make this decision on his/her own. Look at the children who post on CC about how important it is they go to an elite school, usually without regard to the cost of doing so. Children take their cues from their parents and peers. If these kids are convinced that it is all important to go to an elite school, and they are going to have to pay full freight, it is a terrible disservice to them and their folks who will have to front the cost just so the poor child’s self created “psychic” benefits are not damaged. </p>
<p>This is what any rational parent facing this huge bill should do. They should sit down with their child. Show them the studies evidencing there is no difference in success because of the undergraduate school attended. They should also give the student a lesson in critical thinking. Take them to the elite school profiles evidencing how much tuition has gone up at those school over the last fifteen years compared to the inflation rate. Show them how much money is paid to these supposedly elite professors and deans and presidents. Explain to them how these professors spend little time actually teaching, especially at the undergraduate level. Explain to them how you, as the parent, will have to suffer significant financial burden just so these highly overpaid and overrated professors can continue to receive huge compensation at the expense of the students attending these universities.</p>
<p>Then show them all about the higher education loan scam bubble. How student loans are now exceeding credit card debt, more than a trillion dollars. How a whole generation of students have mortgaged their futures because of the scam perpetrated on them by these elite institutions of higher learning. How these loans are non dischargeable in bankruptcy. How these loans will inhibit the ability of kids with these loans to buy houses, cars, furniture, get married . . have decent futures. Explain to them how graduating as debt free as possible from an undergraduate university is the best way to go.</p>
<p>Explain to them about the tuition scam, how it is a con meant to benefit only the elite working for the elite universities. How these elite are feeding their fat rear ends at the student’s expense without regard to how the student is mortgaging his future. </p>
<p>We owe it to our kids to let them see the truth, not to perpetuate this myth that this very expensive higher education at these supposedly elite schools has any more value than the more reasonably priced state or other private school educations.</p>
<p>^ This is pure fiction.</p>
<p>The only reason state schools are cheaper is because tax payers are subsidizing them. Once that stops, the tuition won’t be any cheaper, based on what many are charging OOS students. If the state subsidy keeps going down, the tuition rates will keep going up.</p>
<p>As someone mentioned above, these really are first-world problems, such as whether to sell my Apple stock or buy more. The only non-athelete who got into Stanford among my daughter’s HS cohort was a double legacy with wealthy parents from the 1% (inherited money). Of course, as a Stanford alumnus, she will stay in the 1%. But most students don’t have these choices- they are not going to get into Stanford (or HYP). But it doesn’t mean they can’t be successful or happy people. I read yesterday the happiest people in the world are Latin Americans, because of their strong family connections (not money!). And the happiest places in the world are Denmark and San Luis Obispo. So send your kid to Cal Poly SLO (if they can get in- it’s highly selective because it is such a fantastic bargain). Maybe they’ll decide to stay there, and you can visit them on the glorious Central Coast of California, and everyone will be happy.</p>
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Having just returned from a week of work in Pismo Beach, i can say I don’t think I’ve ever agreed more with a post. Although where I live is still nicer. :D</p>
<p>We are full pay. We are “no big deal don’t worry about it, makes no difference to us” full pay. And I am horrified by the kind of debt kids are going into to get a college education. They really are mortgaging away their future for these degrees. But, that isn’t all that should concern the parents on this thread.</p>
<p>As they mortgage away their future income and their future consumer power, they are mortgaging away the future of the economy in the US, which is consumer driven. So, it isn’t just them, it is all of us. It is colleges grabbing up the income pre-graduation. </p>
<p>What difference does it make if a kid gets a great job if they are 100K or 150K in debt before they graduate. </p>
<p>It’s typical generational theft by organizations which are maybe “supposed” to be teaching our kids more than how to borrow money to pay them. I think any school that allows kids to go this far in debt to pay tuition should not be tax exempt.</p>
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<p>Well, according to TheGFG, if you attend an Elite School, it will be a breeze to pay it off in 3.5 years. This myth IS dangerous for all the reasons you say. But as long as people here and IRL perpetuate it with their specious claims about how Elite Schools guarantee a road paved in gold–combined with their disdainful and condescending attitudes toward “lesser” institutions and the people who attend them–there will be a sizable number of students and parents who will mortgage their futures (and ours) to presumably stack the odds in their favor.</p>
<p>$50K is a lot of money. Try to come up with it or a job that pays it. My oldest went to a school that is way up there in rep for engineering and comp science, and yes, there were some who immediately got great jobs right away. But it was big blow to many when they realized it wasn’t the slam dunk they thought it would be. And owing $100-150K right off the bat is a real mill around the neck. Few kids can afford a mortgage at that level. Also some companies and jobs are such that they don’t want to hire those with high debt to earnings ratios as the chances of financial problems are high. You don’t put a hungry dog out there to watch the chicken coop, you know. </p>
<p>And even those with great jobs can lose them if the industry, company, economy goes bust. There were quite a few uemployed engineers at various times in the last 50 years. When you’ve tracked and lived things over a half a century, you see what can happen as fast as over night. You lose a job suddenly and you have no debt, it’s still an issue. When you lose it with $100-150K in debt,…well, it’a a whole other story, and I won’t go into the whole family thing as you move along and get married, have kids, etc. Sallie Mae knocking at your door each month is not a welcome friend, and she’s actually very nice compared to some of these private lenders who are more akin to some loan sharks in their rules and tactics. They won’t break your knees but they can go at your bank account and credit rating.</p>
<p>Sally- I agree with what you’re saying except that in my neck of the woods, the kids up to their neck in debt are going to Dickinson and Conn College and Goucher. Fine schools all- but not Stanford or Princeton. So in my mind the myth is that Special Snowflake (who got rejected from the schools which might have come up with a financial aid package that is do-able) are ending up borrowing a portion of the EFC plus the loan component of the aid package because the “nurturing environment” of a small school is “worth it”. Worth is in the eyes of the beholder; but I think you are wrong to be demonizing the elite school wannabees… it’s the folks that are loading up with debt to attend the next down tier who are having problems.</p>
<p>I’m not demonizing anyone. I know people who have done exactly what you describe–their SS didn’t get into the top choices, so they are paying $60K-plus to attend consolation-prize schools rather than suck it up and go to our (excellent) state flagship. It’s not that those LACs are not great schools (they are), but that some of the people choosing them are doing so as a way of “saving face” after the Elite School rejections. How people spend their money is their business (in the micro level–I agree with poetgrl about the macro). But the sooner we get away from the prestige obsession that seems to exist in certain circles, the better off we will be.</p>
<p>And FWIW, I am a big believer in the nurturing environment of LACs, especially when they are affordable. My son was offered enough merit aid at all of his top choices to make the cost much less than our state flagship. He is on a full tuition scholarship at his school, and couldn’t be happier. If we had had to send him to a public university for financial reasons we would have–but he is absolutely the kind of kid who needed a smaller school.</p>
<p>My neighborhood has some kids who graduated from Ivy League schools and the highly selective LACs and top 25 National schools and they are not gainfully employed. Some are, some aren’t. Some who are aren’t making any or much money either. My optometrist was a UPenn grad, an anthropology major, who couldn’t make a living wage and went back to school to become, well, an optometrist. She was a very good student at UPenn too. </p>
<p>My friend’s daughter got a wonderful job as a psychology major from a LAC that is not among the most selective in a dept at a top 25 national University. Not the greatest pay, but doable, and she worked there for 2 years and is now at a PHD program that pays most of her costs. So YMMV, as they say. It depends on the kids, the jobs, and luck. THe stats are more on ones side with schools with the ratings, reputation, and recognition, but that still isn’t a sure thing.</p>
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<p>What stats? Seriously, I haven’t seen them.</p>
<p>What stats? I always hear there are such stats. Never seen a peer reviewed study proving the same.</p>
<p>FWIW, another non-athlete cohort from my daughter’s HS who just got into Stanford Law School, is also from the upper-middle class. What is interesting about her case is that for the past 22 years her parents have worked non-stop to give her absolutely everything, including full-pay at Duke for undergrad. For example, they took her to her study abroad in Italy, went back to pick her up, and then they all went back to Italy again for a little vacation a couple of months later. Last summer she attended a full-time LSAT summer class, but THEY paid her $15 an hour so she could feel like she was earning some money (they did the same thing the summer before when she had an unpaid internship). I mean, we all subsidize our kids, but this girl has never heard the words “No, we can’t afford it.” I figure by the time she has finished Duke and Stanford, with all the bells and whistles, such as sorority, leadership camps, LSAT classes, and several trips abroad, they will have spent more than a MILLION on her college education. Not my business, but still it’s an interesting comparisonfor my daughter, who has heard, “No, we can’t afford it” many times in her life. (Not just because we can’t afford it, but because I believe kids should hear those words. I was brought up by Depression parents. They still save the tineiest bit of leftovers such as half a pancake, and get mad if I only drink half a can of soda).</p>
<p>^So this raises an interesting point. A lot of posters here refer to the cost of an elite education as an “investment,” while at the same time calling the cost of a non-elite school a “risk.” Which goes beyond the semantics–it is assigning them to different categories of value. But the thing is, NO ONE would invest a million dollars in any other instrument without having a very good sense of what the return on that investment would be. To do that, they would look at historical yield for the investment and other metrics that give them CONFIDENCE in their decision to put their money there.</p>
<p>And yet people deciding how to spend their money on college do exactly the opposite of what wise investors do–they make tons of assumptions based on scattered anecdotal data, filtering out the truths they don’t want to see. And I am talking not just about people like those in tptshorty’s example above, but anyone who cannot COMFORTABLY afford to write the checks for their child’s college education and instead justify their financially risky behavior with vague promises about “better opportunities” and “connections” that they have no proof exists.</p>