<p>It’s the narcissism, stupid. But just because it’s stupid doesn’t make it any easier. It is very easy in thinking about these things to think clearly for OTHER people, as in you’ll be fine or even better off choosing the less “elite” option. It’s harder to pull the trigger in your own situation, even if the finances are painful. It’s tough to choose lesser in one’s own situation because you know how hard your kid has worked, and you have worked in facilitating your kid, and so there is a sense of he or she DESERVES the “best” school possible. You work all those years to be in the position to get in your “dream” school (and of course that desire is fueled by all of the stereotypic cultural pressures and that stuff and who marries who in the NYT wedding pages, etc, etc), and then when you actually succeed and get those elite acceptances it is very painful indeed to look the other way. As I said, it is much easier to tell my neighbor to make the more reasonable choice than it is for me to make it.</p>
<p>There is a kid on the Rochester site right now who says he/she is going great, happier than ever, with a better social life than ever, in a relationship, and doing great academically…who applied to “more elite” schools for a transfer because Rochester feels “inferior” and now that Vandy has said YES this person is asking if he/she should indeed go to Vandy, when he/she just described a frosh year that most of us would die for (and at a very reputable school I might add). But crazy as it is, I understand how this can happen. </p>
<p>And we see it every day on CC in all of these so and so vs so and so vs so and so comparisons/choices, and then a bunch of posters (mostly fans of certain schools) immediately chime in and tell kids to pick the “higher ranked” school. So in this crazy en environment, how in the heck does one psychologically “do the smart thing” and pick Wooster over Carleton (or whatever the comparison is in any particular case)??? </p>
<p>It’s not just one’s own narcissism. You have to deal with all of the external narcissism too, like the blank, embarrassed stares when you say “my kid’s going to Wooster.” Put another way, the Colleges that Change Lives spiel is something that is far easier to sell to your kid’s friends rather than your own kid. Sounds really great and avante-garde, and smarter than smart…until it’s actually time to pull the trigger on sending in the deposit. And it’s much more about perception and self-perception than ROI or whether you get just as good or a better job (which is why the argument that kids who perform well at the flagship will do as well as better as the same kids who go more elite falls on deaf ears…because that’s NOT the real concern).</p>
<p>Any college that is not HYPSM or currently a sports powerhouse in the news gets the “blank embarrassed stare” because frankly, most people just don’t know very much about colleges beyond their own locality. Carleton is just as obscure as Wooster on a mass national scale. Most people have no idea about liberal arts colleges. Don’t worry about it.</p>
<p>Choosing a college is not all about the best job prospects. Sometimes people don’t like the community or feel of their state school. For example, I was accepted into my state school and I wouldn’t be paying tuition because of merit. However, I really can’t see myself at this school. I like new experiences, I can’t see myself spending four more years 20 minutes away from my house. The dorms are awful, and look like prisons. I got in the honors program, but most of my classes are still huge and would be taught by TA’s. Though it is probably going to cost about $15,000 more after financial aid, but I will be attending a private school next year. If job placement is virtually the same everywhere, as you claim, then you should go somewhere that you will be happy. If that is your state school, then great! If that is not, you have to decide whether the debt is worth it.</p>
<p>The state schools in California ARE elite, bovertine, which explains your position. I’d have my kid attend UCBerkeley or UCLA or UCSB in a heartbeat if they were the least expensive option–even with all the state budget woes. We don’t all have state schools even remotely like those.</p>
<p>Secondly, the argument is not over whether you have to go to Princeton to get a job. The argument is whether or not you can get a much better job and do so much more easily attending Princeton, instead of attending its nearest, cheaper state school neighbor, TCNJ. And the question is whether or not the added ease or quality is worth paying more for. And remember that for a middle class person the difference isn’t always between paying $26,000 vs. $57,000. It’s between paying $26,000 for a mediocre state school vs. paying $15,000-- $40,000 for an Ivy, depending on your income. It’s a tougher decision when you’d only be paying $10,000 more per year than when you’d be paying $30,000 more.</p>
<p>Finalchild, not everybody is a narcissist and I would be willing to bet that most people have no interest in paying the huge amounts necessary, if they are paying the full freight, to send their kids to an ivy league or other elite school. Perhaps in your circles, certain areas of the Northeast, this is important. That’s because, imho, these people are simply screwed up. They grew up in a world where status was everything, and never matured beyond this type of mindset and they pass this mental dysfunction down to their children. Most of us simply want our kids to be happy, and most normal, well adjusted kids can be happy in just about any decent school, state or private . . unless they are led to believe that the deserve more by their upbringing. It is the very, very rare child, the true genius, say the math prodigy, who should truly be in an elite program that will really challenge him.</p>
<p>I feel bad for kids that feel they are failures unless they attend the elite schools. These kids are probably already so screwed up by their upbringings that they will never be happy. They will constantly be striving to be “number one”. They will constantly be comparing themselves to their more successful peers. I grew up in the Northeast, in a wealthy suburb of a major city, and knew many people like that. One of my good friends was convinced he deserved the best, and when he didn’t get it, he committed suicide, as did his brother before him. His father had his own very successful business. I just wonder what the parents did to these poor kids to make them so miserable. I am just glad for myself that I rejected, indeed rebelled against this mindset (although i ended up, income wise, probably as well off as any of my peers who went to the elites). And I am glad that my own children seem to be very satisfied with their “lot” in life. My daughter starts in our State School in the Fall. It will cost us virtually nothing, she will be getting a good education. If she wants to go to a top grad school, that will be open to her. Or she may decide to get a job and live happily ever after. She will not be one of the screwed up masses of dysfunctional, narcissistic kids who are always posting on CC about their chances for this or that, or why the elites are such an important part of their lives.</p>
<p>" I got in the honors program, but most of my classes are still huge and would be taught by TA’s."</p>
<p>My d. not only taught, but graded all papers and “recommended” final grades as a
“preceptor” (TA) in her first year as a grad. student at Princeton, with no training whatsoever. She also provides oversight for eight students writing their senior theses. </p>
<p>This is something that would NEVER have happened at her undergraduate institution.</p>
<p>(Having said that, I should also add that students are lucky to have her. ;))</p>
<p>Guyo…, everyone has narcissism or a narcissistic equilbrium… just as everyone experiences anxiety, depression, etc.</p>
<p>Put a Harvard admit in front of almost anyone with a state school admit, or even fairly highly ranked public or private university or LAC, and you have, at minimum, a mini-crisis.</p>
<p>You missed the whole point of my post if you didn’t get that I wasn’t endorsing the narcissistic choice…but people act like it’s easy to go the other way…and it isn’t, unless, as I said, it’s a recommendation for SOMEONE ELSE.</p>
<p>^^^^^ I didn’t miss the point of your post. I expanded on it. Again, for you it might not be an easy decision. For me, it would be among the easiest of decisions. For many people I know it would be an easy decision. That elite school does not come without a price in most situations. Most people I know have smart kids, but unlike every other poster on CC, these kids are not so smart that the elites are going to give their kids full rides. Add an additional 40 - 50 K per year for tuition and COL and there is rarely a mini-crises with normal, well adjusted, but moderately wealthy people. I know plenty of people whose kids are very smart and who were either admitted to expensive, elite schools, or who were eligible for the same. Paying full freight for an elite school is simply never a consideration for these people. They see no benefit to an elite education that costs 50K more than the same education being offered at the less elite schools. We are talking about undergraduates here. Only a sheepsle would have a crises deciding imho.</p>
<p>You know, I know people who went to and graduated from Harvard, Penn, etc. They are really nothing special in my circles, and command no additional respect. The people who get the wow factors are those who went on to Rhodes or Fullbright fellowships. Who went to Oxford on brain power alone. For me, I’m just not all that impressed with an undergraduate Ivy League pedigree. I do feel more of a wow factor when somebody has graduated from these schools at the higher levels. For example, I do assume a Harvard Law school grad is very intelligent. Funny though, I never assume they are superior lawyers as a consequence. Its all a matter of perception and perspective I guess.</p>
<p>It’s a very personal thing, if you ask me. Economically, the benefit of going to an Ivy will outweigh the cost, while it won’t for others. It depends what dollar value you put on the prestige and the opportunities granted from going to an elite school.</p>
<p>Guyo…do you know anyone who has turned down a Harvard admit to go to a state school (that isn’t Cal, UCLA, Mich, UVA, etc)? Do you know the yield rate for Harvard admits?</p>
<p>One thing I have learned is that being very intelligent doesn’t make you a better person than anyone else. Going to an elite university doesn’t make you a better person than anyone else. Maybe these things make you richer, but they don’t make you a better person. And they definitely don’t make you a happier person. I don’t know what other parents’ goals are for their children, but a lot here on CC (parents and kids) seem to be focused on prestige and income. I’m not saying money isn’t important in life, or that status isn’t important, but to me they are not the most important goals for my life, or my child’s. I am much more concerned that she be independent and enjoy her life. I also wanted her to be ready to start her life debt-free, and for me, that meant sending her to a state school where I could cover all the expenses with no loans. These kids on CC who don’t think $100,000 is a lot of money may be book smart, but not very street smart. It takes YEARS to pay off that kind of debt, many YEARS. Is four years at a dream school worth delaying marriage, children, or home ownership? If you can afford it, sure, go to an elite private institution, but if you can’t afford it? Anyway, I think realistically, most people aren’t choosing between Princeton or Cal State Humboldt. Their choices might be between an expensive private non-Ivy and a state school. (And the most successful person I know, the creator of SpongeBob Squarepants, went to Cal State Humboldt).</p>
<p>In my neck of the woods, we don’t have many Harvard admits (or applicants for that matter). Almost all of those admitted were recruited athletes. Over the years, I have only heard of people turning down Harvard admissions for two schools: Calvin College and Brigham Young.</p>
<p>Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. Because the parents were smart enough and the child was smart enough to avoid loans that are “non-dischargeable” in bankruptcy. The parents were well to do income wise, but did not have the spare cash to pay for Harvard (dad was a physician). Asset rich, cash poor. Anybody who takes out a significant amount of non-dischargeable loans to attend an elite school rather than going for a much less expensive option at a non elite school is absolutely nuts. These loans can follow you forever.</p>
<p>My S turned down Harvard for U of WI - Madison.</p>
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<p>Harvard gets about 25,000 applications for about 1,200 spots. Of the offers of admissions, 80% of the students attend.</p>
<p>Regarding law school: I was talking to an attorney and asked about the two big law schools in the area. He said College A teaches the students what to file and when. College B teaches student why they are filing the form. Both graduates will be fine handling most cases. Guess who will do better with the more difficult ones.</p>
<p>MIT and Caltech teaches kids how to think, not what to think. Having working groups of high performing kids helps them achieve more than what they could have done individually (or with groups of lesser performing kids that don’t add much to the discussion).</p>
<p>Ivies and other elite schools turn out well-burnished cogs. If you want to be cog in the machine, go to an Ivy! If you want to create your own machine, your choice of college–and, arguably, your attendance at college–asymptotically approaches irrelevance.</p>
<p>With an Ivy degree, my S was able to pay off his college loans in one year, while living on his own in a nice apartment in a high-cost city. If he had had a debt of $100,000 as postulated by tpshorty, he’d have been able to pay it off in 3.5 years. No need to delay marriage or home buying, no major albatross around his neck. D, a junior at an elite school, just got a summer internship that pays about the same per month as her brother’s first year salary. God willing, she won’t struggle to pay off her loans either. </p>
<p>D has friends in different majors like CS and engineering at her elite school who have patents by the time they graduate. One CC poster’s S just filed for one this year as a Stanford soph., after being approached about his concept by a major automobile manufacturer. This kind of thing is not uncommon, since companies are invited into their courses to hear final project presentations. Thus these kids can quickly recoup their investment in education if their majors are at all practical. Neighbor’s son majored in CS at TCNJ, was an A student, and got no on-campus interviews for jobs and certainly no companies were visiting campus looking for hot new ideas. Even with a supposedly less practical major, I would think an elite school grad in women’s studies would be more likely to be hired by a women’s advocacy group or non-profit than someone from East State U.</p>
<p>"Guyo…do you know anyone who has turned down a Harvard admit to go to a state school (that isn’t Cal, UCLA, Mich, UVA, etc)? Do you know the yield rate for Harvard admits? "</p>
<p>Harvard has about 400 people decline each year for a close to 80% yield. Many of them choose - 1. an equivalent school but sometimes this might stretch all the way to top 30; 2. choose based on some specific requirements (two years ago, one went to Baylor and another went to UT Austin); 3. choose specific programs like BS/MD.</p>
<p>Until 2007 many people simply turned down Harvard because of the loan burdens. Since the improvement in FA stretching all the way to 150-200k now, it is no longer that bad.</p>
<p>I am noticing that due to several BS/MD programs instituted in Texas this year, several kids are forgoing HYPS admissions. I have seen at least are choosing to go to UT Dallas because it comes with a top 20 med school admission.</p>
<p>And by the way, having an idea of yours get picked up by Honda or Apple is pretty darn fun and fulfilling apart from any materialism. (I’d contend that the average state school kid is more likely to become a “cog.”) Getting a challenging job after graduation working around lots of other smart people is fun too. Hard work and discipline is more likely to produce a happy, contented life than lazy self-indulgence. This idea that somehow Ivy kids are more “messed up” than state school students is pure bunk. Ask my D who deleted high school FB friends attending Rutgers because she was sick of seeing them post pictures of themselves getting high and drunk in their seedy campus houses in New Brunswick. See, I can stereotype state school kids too, and it’s ugly. Don’t stereotype elite school kids.</p>