So, I am a rising sophomore majoring in mechanical engineering, and I just took a practice LSAT and did very well on it. Assuming this wasn’t some weird fluke, if I keep my grades up I should have a decent shot at the top law schools. And when you look at the numbers, the saturation of lawyers hasn’t seem to have hurt Harvard or Yale graduates. So if I do well in one of those schools, I should be set financially.
(sorry if my writing is shitty - my keyboard is messed up)
But do I really want that? I’ve never been particularly passinate about the law. I am on the debate team and am kind of obsessed with that, but I understand that has basically nothing to do with being a lawyer. If I go into law, it would be for the money, because I’ll make more straight out of law school than I might ever make as an engineer.
Yet I’ve read a lot of testimonials from lawyers who claim that not only do they hate being one, but they view law school as the worst decision they ever made. The statistics on lawyer substance abuse rates, job satisfaction numbers, etc. is pretty terrifying. My idea has always been that I could grind it out in BigLaw for a decade or two and then retire early. But I’m beginning to wonder if that is really worth it. Especially seeing as how it would be very difficult to move back into engineering, which I am passionate about, if law doesn’t work out.
So for now, I’m probably thinking against law school. I would really appreciate your input though because I really don’t know what the fuck I’m talking abou.
Don’t be a lawyer unless you really want to be there in the first place. That said, law has many options past the practice of law, and that is especially true if you graduate from one of the top schools. Like anything else, you need to have an organic passion to make it worth your while. Now getting in, that is an all-together different story. So, to be a legitimate candidate say at Y-H-S, well, 173 and above would be about the inflection point, trouble is, of the 21,000 of so folks who take the LSAT annually, a small handful, literally in the hundreds get this score or above–best.
Don’t assume that your starting salary exceeds what you will ever make as a mechanical engineer. Really, really do not - you can end up making less (or less per hour, or less considering the opportunity costs) if you become a lawyer. Look long and hard at what lawyers really earn. Remember that mech-e is not very sought after in patent law. Understand that your GPA will take a big hit when you get into your actual engineering classes next year, and that will make it hard to get into a T14 or get merit money elsewhere.
If you want a lot of earning power, go into finance. They take engineers. Get a PhD in materials or switch to EE. Become a mechanical engineer and go to law school at night. (Less debt, and then your worst case scenario upon graduation is that you’re an employed mechanical engineer with four years of experience.)
First, you can’t spend 1-2 decades in Biglaw unless it’s a great “fit” and you’re good at it. You can spend a few years as an associate in Biglaw even if you’re terrible, and bounce around for a bit from job to job if you need, but once you reach a senior associate level (around 6-7 years), your ability to stay in Biglaw will eventually end. (At 6-8+ years, either you’re partnership material or not, and if you’re not, you’re usually out the door, and you can only bounce from job to job a few times.) Once you’re 8+ years out, it’s important (perhaps less so in huge law firms) to have a book of business in order to find and keep a job, and if you’re not any good, you won’t get a book of business.
Second, liking being a lawyer doesn’t really equate to liking the law. The only people who love the law, for the sake of law, are dorks. I don’t care about the law itself as an inherently interesting topic, since it’s not, but I like being a lawyer fine.
Third, there is a very high attrition rate among lawyers in Biglaw within a few years. Maybe most don’t like it: the hours, particularly at a junior level, are erratic; the hours are pretty bad at all levels; and the work, particularly at a junior level, is drudgery. At a senior level, the job gets a lot more interesting but dealing with difficult clients gets much worse. No job is perfect, though, and being a lawyer: making deals flow, solving problems and giving guidance, without having too many in-person meetings or phone calls, works for me. I’ve totally hated and been terrible at some of the “fun” volunteer jobs that I’ve had–such as middle school counselor for a nonprofit–but like lawyer just fine, so it’s just a matter of what fits your personality.
@ariesathena Why would you recommend switching from Mech E? Is it more difficult to break into non-engineering fields with it?
Also, would a masters in engineering be sufficient to land a desirable finance position, or do they typically go for doctorates?
@HappyAlumnus What part of being a lawyer do you find enjoyable? You mention problem solving and giving guidance - I’m imagining these facets exist in a variety of professions. Is there anything in particular about being a lawyer that makes the job, at the very least, tolerable?
^^“Second, liking being a lawyer doesn’t really equate to liking the law. The only people who love the law, for the sake of law, are dorks.”
I’m one of the dorks! I liked the law, though not so much being a lawyer. Client expectations are unrealistically high, and stress levels are enormous in some areas of the law. I did it for 14 years, then switched to nonprofit work which I found very rewarding.
One factor to consider–if you are in a relationship, also having a spouse or a partner in a very high-stress occupation as well can take its toll. Once I pulled back from private law practice, the quality of our family life improved enormously.
My neighbor’s daughter, a software engineer, is making the same salary as an entry level associate in big law. She also has stock options at her company which will go public soon. She is 23 years old and a recent grad from college. If you don’t love law, don’t go to law school. It’s not a guaranteed path to financial success.
^^^ What numbers are you talking about?
Almost all big law firms have the same lock step salaries for their associates. HYS grads don’t make more entering firms.
Read the first paragraph in post #4.
@MIdwestDad3, you’re not a dork; you say that you “like” the law. Dorks “love” the law. I still do not see how anyone could love things such as a 4(2) exemption under securities laws, or ERISA regulations, but people must.
@RMIBstudent, I like law because it’s a job that you can do solo (even if you work in a large firm) and there is minimal emotional drama involved. The law is the law, and so you just have to tell people how things have to be, whether they like it or not.
I’ve worked in companies before and had to deal with non-lawyers mostly there and there was so much focus on saying the right thing to the right person, and not saying the wrong thing to the wrong person, that the intellectual side of the job there was just minimal; it was all politics and dealing with people with power trips. Plus it was mostly meetings, and saying the right thing in the right way at those meetings. Thus I would hate being in business.
Also, think about the best case median salary scenario. The article says Stanford Law grads make $236K mid-career. But mid-career WHERE? These big law firms are in big, expensive cities. People are paying $20K for elementary schools per year in NYC, $30-35K per year for high schools. They’re paying $3.5K to rent a median 2 bedroom apartment. They pay $700K for a 2 bedroom condo. Take off taxes, rent and a couple of kids, and you’re downright stretched!
There’s plenty of places like this. I have family in a Northern Virginia city where they have 3 girls at private elementary schools because the public school system in their city has a lottery and then some onerous travel burden or something, depending on where you get in. The rich Boston attorney grandma has to help, and the dad’s a CCN law grad who’s a charming guy and hard worker. There’s nothing wrong with his career.
All I know is that once you factor in ever having a kid, and high costs of living and taxes, boxing yourself into 80 workweeks you may absolutely hate may, in the final analysis, seem really awful. Forget retiring early on a heap of cash that probably won’t manifest. Do what you like and are interested in, and hope it’s something you can do somewhere outside a major US city.
HappyAlumnus provides a solid overview of big law. Best case scenario (money speaking) you come in between 160-180K as a first year. The career is very time intensive, and thus attrition is tethered to this career path. I was, for about 5 years, at a firm that hovers around the 20th largest (give or take), depending on who is folding and who is merging. While it was educational, and served to create an impetus on what I really wanted to do, there is no getting around it, it was brutal.
Some are made for it, others are not. I have a couple of peers that stayed the course, navigated the tricky political waters of partnership (more on this on another topic), and now see total compensation in the 7 figures annually. Long story short, it is not a career you can fake it, or hold your breath—as it will spit you out.
So I suppose not all/most lawyers don’t become rich, but if I go to HYS, I’ll most likely make more money than I would as an engineering grad, unless if I want to/make it into I-banking or something.
Do you notice any features among lawyers that makes them more likely to enjoy their professions? I have no idea if I’m cut for it. I’m on the debate team - that’s the only stereotypical lawyer trait I have, and I know it doesn’t really have anything to do with being a real one.
RMIBstudent, as an alumnus of one of the HYS schools, you won’t necessarily make more money over the long run than as an engineering grad. Nobody I know from my law school is poor–all of my friends from there are at least upper-middle income at the low end, and anybody who wants a $160000 first-year associate job can have it-but you’re not guaranteed to be just rolling in cash throughout your career; I’ve certainly had more prosperous and less-prosperous times, even having been in the private sector since graduation.
In a prior job, my other lawyer colleagues and I had to take a personality test. We all came out as very creative. I forget what the other categories came out as, but my personality type (ISTJ on Myers-Briggs), in my view, is perfect for being a lawyer in a law firm.
If you have the talent to get into a HYS law school, you have the talent to be successful in many other ways. The time and money you invest in a law degree, you could instead invest in developing a business idea, or improving your marketing or business skills. Only a fraction of engineers remain engineers long term.
My career is a case in point. I was a software developer for the first 8 years, and then spent several years in marketing, went to a top 5 MBA program with the intent of starting a company, and somehow ended up being a portfolio manager in finance. And even when I was a “just an engineer”, I did well enough in startups to hit a 7 figure net worth in my 20s. Don’t under-estimate the engineering degree and what you can do with it.
I think it’s important to make distinction between software engineer and mechanical engineer, I the the later has more chance to make 7 figure in your 20s.
Yes, but if you’re passionate about engineering, be an engineer. Don’t look at average salaries. Upside definitely exists for engineers.
And remember this if you don’t remember anything else: If you are entrepreneurial in any way and are considering fields that people value (and engineering certainly qualifies), your highest upside will be in the field that you are most passionate about.
There seems to be a lower ceiling for salaries in more “traditional” engineering fields as compared to software engineering. The average across the two is similar, but the very best software engineers appear to make a lot more than the very best mechanical engineers.
I think you are setting yourself up to be one of those people who ends up with a lot of post-law school debt and regret. (I’m an expert!) Follow your passion – engineering is a fine career with plenty of opportunities to “strike it rich”. It’s not like your choosing between a passion for musical theater vs. a prudent career in the law. Also, how does your expected “HYS” grad salary compare to top three master’s/Ph.D. engineering schools, adjusted for law school financing and other opportunity costs etc? That would seem to be the real comparison.