<p>I’m rather surprised that your father and principal are opposed to Barnard. I had an Orthodox Jewish client and Barnard and Stern (Yeshiva, not NYU) are the only colleges he allowed his D to apply to. Barnard has an all female dorm and my understanding is that because of that fact it attracts a lot of Orthodox Jewish families. Of course, it also attracts a number of devout Muslims for the same reason! </p>
<p>Congrats on Barnard. You can receive a direct commission in the Army with a BA or BS degree in a professional occupation, (ex.- nurse, engineer, dentist, doctor, vet., etc.) You do not have to attend OCS, only a 2 week training program. If you are leaning towards the military, consider Air Force or Navy versus Army. </p>
<p>My father agreed to fill out the necessary forms, thankfully (after calling me some names, but who cares??)!!! My mother did not believe he would, but I’m thoroughly relieved! </p>
<p>@happymomof1- There is no way I’m giving up Barnard for CUNY or SUNY, unless I truly have no other choice. I took the ACT on a Sunday and there were a total of 9 students taking the exam at that testing location. The proctor did not announce the 5 minute warning, she wrote it on the board, hence the confusion, although it was my mistake. Seminary is extremely important for me and although I chose one that doesn’t necessarily reflect my school’s beliefs, they were supportive, as they understand that this is what’s best for me. </p>
<p>@blossom- My math knowledge up until calculus is solid; I had excellent teachers, at least for my school’s standards. I know it may not be EASY to catch up in calculus, but I’m willing to study on my own or get a tutor and I don’t need easy, I need doable. I’ve honestly had to fight so hard to even get to this point and I’m not going to give up now. I may seem naive and unrealistic, but I have the entire year of seminary to work on gaining a solid math foundation. I’m going to speak to Barnard about this 3-2 engineering program, but I’m not sure how that would work in the military and if I would end up owing an extra year as a result of the 5th year in college. But regardless, I need to see how well I do on the Calc AB exam before deciding anything.
In your opinion (or anyone else’s here!), what level of calculus do I need to be completely proficient in if I want to succeed at a top-level engineering program? What about the sciences? I’m assuming for Physics, Chem and Bio, AP level would suffice? Thank you.</p>
<p>@ECmotherx2- Why do you recommend AF or Navy specifically over Army? I originally wanted to join the Marines, but as all their doctors come from the Navy, that became a moot point. I’m leaning towards Army, but I have not made a clear decision yet, so I’m open to hearing suggestions. </p>
<p>@LaughaholicMD – as you are planning to defer, you don’t need to resolve the financial aid issue immediately – it is the financial aid for 2015 that matters. (edited to delete part about father – since he’s now agreed to complete the paperwork!)</p>
<p>I agree with the others that you are in no way ready for any engineering program with your high school calc class… That’s why you need to take the AP exam-- you might have a pleasant surprise, but it may also be a rude awakening – and one you need to have. There are plenty of kids taking high school calculus who get A’s in class but end up with a 2 on the AP exam – that AP test is the only objective measure you have to get a sense of how you stand in relation to others when it comes to math proficiency. </p>
<p>Getting a higher ACT score is probably helpful, but it won’t be enough to get you into a selective engineering school. You just need something to bolster a very weak math/science background because of your high school and restrictions on EC’s. That’s why all of us are telling you to go to Barnard if you can possibly afford it. We just don’t see a better offer coming your way. That doesn’t mean that you have to stay at Barnard all 4 year years – but if you can manage a strong GPA at Barnard, then you will be a much stronger candidate as a transfer student (with a great story to tell). </p>
<p>And yes, that engineering degree might take 5 years instead of 4… but you are starting with a handicap. And maybe you’ll end up having to get a degree from CUNY instead of JHU or SEAS. But right now you have been handed the gift of what may be the most significant opportunity of your life. </p>
<p>One more note: you are pretty sure right now that you want biomedical engineering and/or premed. But your feelings may change after your year in Israel – one more reason to hold onto the offer that has been given to you. </p>
<p>Again – you can always change your mind later on. You can notify Barnard next October or next January, or in April or August of 2015 that you aren’t coming, for whatever reasons. But if you tell them no right now, there is no going back. All you have to lose is the deposit. For what you have been offered, $400 is a very low price to hold open a door to the future. </p>
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<p>The other students at SEAS probably have completed Calc BC in high school, and come from high schools with strong lab sciences. An AP designation on a course is not by itself an indication of rigor or equivalency – you will be sitting in class next to graduates of schools like Bronx Science and you may find that all of your math, science, and engineering classes are graded on a curve. So you will be given tests that are written with the assumption that very few students in the class will be able to answer all problems within the time allotted, and graded on how well you do in relation with the other students.</p>
<p>Most of the other students in any engineering class you take will be male. That in itself will be a change for you. Given your cultural background and beliefs, you may find that intimidating. That might also impact your GPA. I know that my daughter was proactive in forming study groups with other students, and getting help from male as well as female students when needed to complete problem sets and the like. (She avoided math as much as possible, but she still had to complete one math course and a year long lab science course to meet Barnard’s 9-Ways-of-Knowing requirements). But will you feel the same way? </p>
<p>I don’t think that you quite have a sense of how weak your own academic preparation may be, and how intense the academic demands of Barnard/Columbia are. My daughter also misjudged – but recovered quickly - but there were a couple of B’s her first semester in classes meant for upper level students that she probably shouldn’t have signed up for in the first place. (In hindsight still good: she got discipline, and that paved the way for A’s in her subsequent courses.) </p>
<p>Laugh, you chose to apply to Barnard and they chose to accept you. They believe you can handle the workload or they would not have accepted you. By all means say YES to Barnard. Take the GAP year, if that is what you choose, but don’t drop the ball on this one, it’s a wonderful school and you choose it. If you want to strengthen your skills during your gap year, by all means keep them from getting rusty. Why would you want to start the college process all over again? You are in, why take the ACT again? The AP score doesn’t matter unless you are looking to place out of some course. Send in your deposit so you do not lose your place at Barnard! </p>
<p>I have not read the entire thread, but I know a lot about Orthodox Judaism and NYC in general. Barnard would be a great match for you. My good friend’s daughter took a gap year in Israel, is pretty observant and was pre-med at Barnard. It worked out very well for her. Don’t let your school’s philosophy distract you from your goals. I say go for it and be proud of yourself!</p>
<p>OP- I know a lot of kids who plan to spend the seminary year honing their skills (math, Spanish, whatever, based on their academic plans) but it is easier to do conceptually than in reality. You need uninterrupted time online if you’re doing a Coursera type class (or any other online tutorial) and you need the problem sets to be graded and then you need MORE time online. At many of the girls dorms, you get a 10 minute allotment to read your emails and that’s it for the day. Plus- even at the most open minded institution, you are not there to learn calculus or to attend a physics lab at Hebrew U- you are there for other reasons.</p>
<p>So if Barnard is affordable, take it and run. Once you get there you will find dozens of things to get interested in and excited about. Engineering may or may not be one of them. At a competitive engineering program you will not only find the Bronx Science/Stuy kids mentioned above, but kids who have been in robotics competitions since 9th grade who have built solar go-carts, made their own computers out of spare parts, developed prototypes for toilets which don’t require a consistent clean water supply, etc. So it’s not just the strong foundation in math and the sciences (plus the labs)-- you may not have had enough encouragement in the “tinkering/deconstructing” mode of engineering and so it may take you some time to get your obvious intellectual skills, ambitions, and practical experience in synch.</p>
<p>Congrats on Barnard- such a phenomenal opportunity.</p>
<p>My husband did the Health Professions Scholarship Program (though 20+ years ago) through the Air Force. He chose AF because he thought their bases were overall in better locations than the Army and he didn’t want to be stuck on a ship for months at a time. He received his commission as a 2nd lt right before undergrad graduation and that summer went to a month of basic (not as rigorous as “real” basic training but they still make you run in combat boots!).</p>
<p>He owed a month to the AF for each year of med school, usually done in the summer though during 3rd/4th year he did rotations at AF hospitals in TX and CA. He knew all along what specialty he wanted to pursue, and from the beginning sought out higher ups to get his name out there and have someone in his corner when decisions had to be made. At every step he had to get permission or approval—where he did his residency, if he could complete necessary 2 years of research (in order to get a fellowship), if he could pursue said fellowship. He was lucky; the AF needed someone in his area of study—but they only needed one, and the 2 other guys who also wanted to be that kind of dr were denied and sent into other tracks that were not what they wanted. Once you are off the track, it can be hard to go back.</p>
<p>Because he got the fellowship, it did add 2 years onto his payback time (6 yrs instead of 4). Unfortunately these 6 years fell during the Iraq war and he went over there twice (another AF benefit—5 month tours instead of 12 months+). Consider this option carefully. It offers freedom from crushing debt and an opportunity to serve your country, but it also can take away some of your freedom of choice (where to live, what to study) and in my husband’s case, seeing things he wouldn’t wish on his worst enemy. He calls it the “million dollar experience you wouldn’t pay a dime for.”</p>
<p>Best of luck to you and congratulations on your acceptance to Barnard!</p>
<p>Bearpanther listed some very good examples of why other branches of service other than Army. When I served, the bases had terrible living conditions, tours were difficult and attitudes towards females were demeaning, (I was an officer and professional). While that was a long time ago, I had friends in the Navy and Air Force that were enjoying better working and living conditions.</p>
<p>I, too, like the idea of Barnard. You can see how well you do in college Calculus courses. If you do well, then you can consider doing engineering later. If not, then you are in a great LAC.</p>
<p>@bearpanther- I definitely don’t want to go into the Navy, as I can’t imagine being on a ship for months on end. I know one Jewish officer in the AF, but he was just commissioned and works with computers, so his MOS is completely irrelevant to me. I know multiple Jewish chaplains in the Army, but I have yet to speak to them about living conditions and other accommodations, and I doubt they’ll know anything about medicine. I’ve been told to stay away from recruiters, so thank you for that information!</p>
<p>@blossom- I know it’ll be difficult to study Calculus in seminary, but I do have the discipline for it. I self-studied three APs last year with just the review books and ended up with two 4s and a 5. My plan is to buy a bunch of books, specifically ones with detailed explanations of the answers, and commit myself to the studying. I also have the option of registering for some of the higher level physics and math courses at my local CC this summer, as I will have some free time. I know there may come a time that I will have to give up the biomedical engineering, but I’m not there yet, and I’m going to do everything I can to make this happen. </p>
<p>I did speak to someone at the admissions office at Barnard and she said that if Barnard doesn’t offer a major that a student is interested in, the student can still do that major through Columbia. She said that this included engineering, but she sounded uncertain, so I’m trying to verify from other sources. If this is indeed true, it would be ideal for me, as I wouldn’t have to go through the 3-2 combined program (which the woman said IS covered in FA), but I would need to really work hard to ensure my math and science levels are where they need to be (and definitely take some courses at community college). </p>
<p>They don’t really care if he pays anything, you still can’t ignore that he exists, he’s your father, and you know where he is. The issues isn’t does he pay, does he want to pay, but CAN he pay.</p>
<p>LaughaholicMD … please keep in mind that there is a huge difference between self-studying a subject and passing an exam, and having the benefit of studying that subject in a strong academic environment with a capable teacher.
Many students who have taken math and science APs in high school – and passed the AP exam – opt to retake the same course in college anyway, because they realize that they need to strengthen and solidify their knowledge of that subject.</p>
<p>I’m very skeptical of a plan to “self-study” any new subject while you are in seminary. I think it probably is a good idea to plan to review what you have already studied, to cement and reinforce knowledge. It also is acceptable if your goal is essentially to prepare for a college class in the same subject. But don’t plan around the idea that it will enable you to move ahead – you probably will want to enroll in Calculus I when you get to Barnard/Columbia. (I put the slash because it is the same course, same course number at either school – I can see from the current course listing that next fall there is one section offered at Barnard and 12 offered at Columbia next fall - the choice of section would probably be mostly dictated by scheduling concerns, and possibly influenced by information gleaned about the quality of the teacher from Culpa - FWIW the Barnard prof seems to be very well regarded). </p>
<p>This is why the Barnard environment would be such a gift to you: it is a rigorous academic environment-- but also one that is flexible enough that you will have excellent opportunities even if you realize that a different path is better for you. </p>
<p>What exactly do you think biomedical engineering is and other than a backup to med school if you can’t get in, what paths do you think it opens for you that others do not?</p>
<p>I’m not being argumentative-but if you had the choice between a BS from Barnard in Chemistry with a deep dive on molecular and cellular biology, and several rigorous statistics classes, vs. a BS in Biomedical Engineering from somewhere else… what’s the upside for you? A degree in chemistry from Barnard allows you to start from exactly where you are- taking the right courses in the correct sequence, and getting up to speed if your lab skills aren’t as strong as those from a kid who graduated from TJ or Bronx HS of Science or Horace Mann or New Trier HS. A degree in any engineering discipline means starting out immediately in a math/science sequence which may or may not meet your needs. And self-studying a science and getting a 4 or 5 is absolutely fantastic. BUT- how did you do the lab work? Where did you do the lab work and who supervised you and is helping you get better at it???</p>
<p>Please note that Barnard does not offer a B.S. degree – it is possible for someone to major in chemistry, but the degree would an A.B. degree. (So BS from Barnard in Chemistry is impossible). </p>
<p>I don’t think that the degree designation matters at all for grad school admissions – but it could make difference for in the engineering field for someone planning to seek appropriate certifications and employment based on the 4 year degree. I really don’t have a clue as to what is required for a career in biomedical engineering. </p>
<p>But I also think that the prestige value of a Barnard A.B. would far outweigh the value of an engineering degree from a lower-tier engineering school… and it would be darn near impossible for the OP to get admitted to a top tier engineering school with her high school background + a year of seminary. It’s just not what the engineering schools are looking for. </p>
<p>I think the smartest path would be to attend Barnard, and enroll in the introductory level math/science courses her first year (introductory calc, first year bio, etc. ) – because that would provide the opportunity to strengthen skills and to maintain a reasonably strong GPA. If she tries to take on more than she can handle academically, she could run into trouble academically, and it could be hard to recover from a failed course or weak grades in core classes down the line when it comes to applying to med school. </p>
<p>@blossom – the OP said she self-studied for AP courses last year but she did not say that they were science courses – so we still really don’t know much about what lab science grounding she has, if any. </p>
<p>@calmom- The APs I self-studied were not science courses. I was just using that as an example of how I’ll have no problem finding time (I don’t sleep) or motivation to study. </p>
<p>I’m going to take some calculus and physics or chemistry classes at my community college this summer, so I’ll at least feel a little more confident walking into Barnard. Depending on how that goes, I may or may not need to start with introductory level math/science, but regardless, the additional learning with be useful. </p>
<p>I am going to enroll at Barnard and I’m probably going to go through the 3-2 program with Columbia engineering. I agree that it’s the best option for me, especially considering that you get two degrees. After five years I can walk out with a degree in Chemistry or Neuroscience (still undecided) and Biomedical Engineering. I was initially hesitant about going through five years of undergrad (even though this program will allow me to build up my math and science knowledge before any real engineering), but now that I found out that you end up double majoring, I feel a lot more comfortable with it. In addition, admission to Columbia engineering is guaranteed as long as I fulfill certain requirements, such as maintaining a 3.3 GPA, 3 letters of recommendation, etc. Thank you everyone for the advice.</p>
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<p>That’s why I think it’s best to take introductory level course rather than assuming that self-study has prepared you for the next level. Easier to get that 3.3 GPA if you are not taking on more than you can handle. And a strong foundation in calculus or any lab science will pay off down the road. </p>
<p>Of course, I am sure that Barnard will assign you a faculty adviser who will be able to guide you in making these choices, and Barnard has a “shopping” period at the beginning of each semester, so you will be able to sit in on classes at different levels to get a better sense of what is best for you. </p>
<p>I’d suggest that you also arrange to take the SAT II Hebrew exam, as a score of 700+ will exempt you from the Barnard foreign language requirement. I’m sure that after your seminary year you will be able to easily pass that exam (if not before) – and even if you would like to study a language while in college, an exemption from language requirement may potentially free up time for you to devote to other courses. </p>
<p>Just my 2 cents, the gamble is whether you will do well enough there to meet your career aspirations.
Most people there will be well prepared. I don’t know about how your school was. I know kids who went to Frisch? in NJ who were very well prepared for competeitive colleges. But others, where essentially everyone went on to Jewish schools, where English, and the curriculum that is conventional to most other students, was taught as an afterthought, essentially. If yours was in the latter category you may not be so well prepared.</p>
<p>Most people who start out for an MD do not follow through, usually because they do not get high enough grades.
Columbia SEAS has some of the mathematically brainiest students in the country. Being relatively less well prepared may make it yet more difficult.</p>
<p>As to whether it’s “worth it”: it will be worth it if you do well enough. And I’m not saying you won’t, because I don’t know.</p>