Is it worth the gamble?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I go to an all-girls, Jewish, ultra-orthodox high school that does not encourage their students to attend college outside of the Jewish schools. When I told my teacher about Barnard, she said, "Congrats, that's nice, but that doesn't mean I think you should attend," and I haven't even told my principal yet, because, well I'm kind of scared :-/ We don't have a guidance counselor and I learned about the application process on the internet. I only had time to take the ACT once, so I ended up with a 29 ACT and I never took subject tests because I found out that they existed too late to start self-studying for them. My school offers no ECs, so everything I did was on my own. Sorry for the whole ramble here, just trying to paint a full picture.</p>

<p>I applied to a few Ivies and top schools and the best one I got into is Barnard. I'm taking a gap year, which I had planned from the beginning. I didn't think I'd get into Barnard and I thought I'd definitely have to reapply to other schools next year with better stats and subject tests, but now that I got in, I have a decision to make.</p>

<p>I'm not sure whether to accept from Barnard (and defer for the year) or reapply to other schools next year. I love everything about the school, besides for the fact that it's liberal arts. I want to go into medicine, but recently I decided that I may want to go through an ROTC program and serve as a doctor in the army. I want to major in biomedical engineering so that if I don't get into medical school, I'll still have a job. In addition, an engineering degree is a lot more beneficial for someone in the military (especially if I try to get the ROTC scholarship). However, if I don't accept from Barnard, I have no guarantee that I'll get into another university next year that has an ROTC program and is anywhere near the level of Barnard. I live in the New York area and because of familial obligations, would prefer to stay close, but I am open to anything between Boston and Baltimore. I love Columbia or JHU, but as I was rejected from both this year, there's no guarantee for next year. However, I can't help thinking that if Barnard isn't going to help me reach my educational goals, what's the point? Do I give up my spot there and reapply to schools next year (including Barnard in case I once don't get in anywhere better) with the understanding that I may end up at a state school or just accept my spot and major in Biology since my goal, regardless, is medicine? Thank you.</p>

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<p>I think you might have inaccurate information about what a liberal arts school is and what you need to do to go to med school.</p>

<p>First, about med school, you just need to complete the required premed coursework, this can be done at any 4 yr colleges, with any major. My D1 is a first year med student, she majored in English.</p>

<p>LACs tend to be smaller and not have graduate programs, but other than that, they are absolutely fine for being a premed. As a matter of fact, sometimes they are beneficial in that you may be able to get to know profs more easily. My D2 is at a LAC and she’s doing her second year of biological research as there are no grad students.</p>

<p>If B will let you defer a year and apply to other colleges during that time, it seems like there’s no downside in doing that. </p>

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<p>Since you are in the area, go visit the pre-med advisor at Barnard and get some of your questions answered. Ask about ways to do at least some of the engineering that you are interested in. You may be surprised.</p>

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<p>You can do pre-med and a science-oriented track at Barnard. Biology is just one of many options that might be a good fit for your interests. </p>

<p>You said that your high school has very limited course offerings. What was your math subscore on the ACT? What’s the highest math level that you studied at your high school? I’m wondering whether you have the adequate math prep for a competitive engineering program. </p>

<p>You can do ROTC at Barnard, either via Columbia or Fordham. So you could accept your Barnard spot and defer-- as was your plan anyway - and probably apply to the ROTC program in the interim. </p>

<p>But as far as I know, you don’t have to do ROTC to qualify for an army scholarship to pay for med school – I think can apply and enlist after you graduate. </p>

<p>I’m concerned that you are coming from a very sheltered background and may not have that clear of an idea of your educational and career options. Barnard would definitely be a place that would provide plenty of opportunities for learning and exploration. </p>

<p>Is money a problem? I don’t know whether you are thinking about the ROTC program because you need the scholarship to afford to attend Barnard (or another school) - or if you are just under the impression that you need to do that to get the army to finance med school.</p>

<p>I also wonder if you really have a good understanding of career options - you certainly wouldn’t have gotten it it from your high school. A statement like: " I want to major in biomedical engineering so that if I don’t get into medical school, I’ll still have a job." sounds terribly naive – as if the only jobs on the planet were for biomedical engineers. </p>

<p>According to my daughter, Barnard’s career department is amazing – I think that especially with your background, you are probably going to do better to start at a school that gives you some time to explore before settling on a major. I think you really do need to get a sense of how you fare in college in relation to your peers.</p>

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<p>So the only downside to Barnard is that it doesn’t have engineering? Why don’t you look further into the math/science options at Barnard. Did they make it affordable for your family? (Are you the ambulance girl?)</p>

<p>From where you are coming from it seems ideal. All girls should give some basis for comfort. But you have all the social and academic resources of Columbia across the street. I think you lucked out getting in there and might like to grab it. They will support your ambitions. There should be ample opportunity to be involved in Jewish life to the extent you like.</p>

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<p>I also think Barnard is the best fit from what you’ve described about yourself.</p>

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<p>@calmom- I’m taking AP Calc AB this year, so although it’s not linear algebra, I’m hoping it would be sufficient for a competitive engineering program. What brought my score down was science and that was because during the exam, there were two times written on the board and I thought I had less time than I actually did, so I rushed and filled in bubbles randomly. Once I realized I had an extra 7 minutes, it was very difficult to go back and fix everything. Oh well.</p>

<p>I understand that I can major in anything and still go to medical school. But I know that if I don’t get into med school, I want to have a job that I’ll enjoy, which is why I want to major in biomedical engineering. Why would I major in biology or something else that won’t help me with a career I’d even want beyond med school? In addition, if i don’t get into med school and decide to go active in the military, it’ll be a lot easier to get a good MOS (essentially job) with an engineering degree.</p>

<p>As far as ROTC goes, to become a doctor in the military, you can’t enlist, you have to become an officer. If I do it through college, they do help financially, regardless of whether or not you get the scholarship. However, I don’t want to join the military for financial reasons. If I choose to join after college, without going through ROTC, I’ll have to go through a six month program called OCS. </p>

<p>@BrownParent- Yes, I am “ambulance girl”. The story didn’t end well, so rather than creating an even more negative impression of someone who represents a tiny percentage of the orthodox population, I chose not to write about it. </p>

<p>I can’t help thinking that maybe there was a real reason I got into Barnard, which is why I’m so hesitant to turn it down. Engineering is the only reason I’m hesitant at all, but for very valid reasons in my opinion, as I just wrote above.</p>

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<p>What do you plan to do in your gap year?</p>

<p>Since you have planned to do a gap year in any case – I think that you should defer and hang onto your spot. You can continue to review options during the year, and if at some point you decide to change your mind then you can always let go of the spot later on. But it’s a bird in hand … and it may be the best opportunity that comes your way.</p>

<p>Definitely take the AP Calc exam – one issue with coming from a small school is that it hard to gauge your math skills. Is the “A” you get in your high school class going to hold up in a university environment? If you do decide to apply to a school for an engineering program, a strong AP score may boost your admission chances – you’d probably also want to take the math SAT II exam. I’m just assuming that your small ultra-orthodox all-girl’s high school is probably not on the admissions radar for the type of program you are considering. (And it IS the type of background that might appeal to Barnard – so it does no surprise me at all that they accepted you. )</p>

<p>Please talk to the Barnard Dean about your concerns and your options (from the web site it says Gill Fondiller, Dean of Enrollment Management). From the web site, it says that you cannot matriculate at another university while enrollment is deferred, but it doesn’t say anything about whether you can apply to other programs --but the Barnard Dean can also help you better understand what options you might have at Barnard. </p>

<p>The Barnard faculty and administration are incredibly supportive of their students and alum. I think that you are a person who really should have a school that will give you that support – I don’t see that you will get that at home or from your community. I’m not talking about emotional support – perhaps your parents are loving and accepting and willing to accept your choices even if it is not the life they envisioned for you – but I mean the support of people who understand the practical and academic issues of the career path you now think you want. </p>

<p>Also, I think you should seriously look into the 5-year combined plan with Columbia Engineering – you would be at Barnard for your first three years and then finish the last 2 years at Columbia SEAS. I think it’s important that you consider that route because you may have a hard time winning admission to a strong engineering program otherwise. It’s not a problem with you – it’s a problem with coming from a school that the ad coms are not familiar with. (I don’t see how they could be, as it appears that your high school does everything it can to discourage students from applying to secular colleges) – and you obviously don’t have the sort of EC’s that math/science kids typically have. So even if you have a perfect GPA and are at the top of your high school class, those engineering schools won’t take you seriously unless you can bolster your resume somewhat. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that at Barnard there is no limit to how many courses you can take at Columbia – most math courses will be taken there and you can opt for other courses as well. Courses at SEAS are open to Barnard students – I just checked (see <a href=“CU Directory of Classes”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/&lt;/a&gt; ) and easily verified that Biomedical Engineering E1001 (“Engineering in Medicine”) is open to Barnard students. So Barnard may be the best opportunity you have if your goal is an engineering degree from a top institution. </p>

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I felt that way about my daughter. </p>

<p>I ordinarily do not encourage students with an engineering bent to opt for Barnard – so it’s not that I am just a crazy Barnard mom who tries to sell everyone on Barnard. But I just don’t see you having a whole lot of options with your school background. Maybe I’m mistaken, but to me it looks like an uphill climb for you to get into an elite-level engineering program. Of course there are other programs you can consider – you can get an engineering degree from CUNY as well, and I’m sure their admission standards are more flexible – but take a long hard look at the opportunity that has been handed to you before walking away. </p>

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<p>If your family can afford Barnard based on what you know now (i.e. no ROTC) take the acceptance and run.</p>

<p>You have very vague ideas about biomedical engineering to be honest- and my guess is that you have an even vaguer idea about what ROTC and active military service is all about. I know observant women who have done active military service but they come from backgrounds much more “modern” and less sheltered than you.</p>

<p>If Barnard is affordable, take it and don’t look back. There is no path that you want to pursue that can’t get started on coming out of Barnard. You’ve been accepted- hurrah. You’ve got no guarantees that anything you do in the next 12 months will make you a stronger candidate for any other college, and I think you have some significant cultural barriers that would make attending other colleges quite difficult for you.</p>

<p>Do you know people who have done OCS? And do you know people who are currently serving as military officers??? </p>

<p>There are hundreds of careers that you don’t know about-- not your fault, but I doubt your HS has its students shadowing a wide range of careers. So take Barnard and don’t look back.</p>

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<p>I agree with the “take Barnard and don’t look back” advice here. For all of the reasons stated. Barnard is a great choice for you.</p>

<p>Do you think you can raise your ACT to 34+? Frankly, I tend to doubt it. And even WITH that kind of score your chances, like everyone’s, are slim at the lottery schools that one <em>might</em> consider to be “better” than Barnard. (Actually, I would argue with the whole proposition.) I think what you need to realize here is that Barnard saw something special in you that made them decide to take a bit of a chance you. Partly, this may be because they are more familiar with girls from your kind of school than colleges elsewhere. </p>

<p>What did you plan to do during a gap year? If it was only to apply to other places, and you can afford Barnard, I’d just head straight to Barnard next fall and prepare for a great experience.</p>

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<p>Barnard also has a 3-2 engineering program in concert with Columbia. It’s not what I’d recommend for someone who knows going in that they want to pursue engineering, but it’s a great option for someone like the OP who may want to explore other disciplines before committing.</p>

<p><a href=“Combined Plan Applicants | Columbia Undergraduate Admissions”>http://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/learn/academiclife/engineering/combined-plan-program&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://bme.columbia.edu/”>http://bme.columbia.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>@calmom- I’m going to seminary in Israel for the year. In terms of AP Calc, I’m definitely planning on taking the exam, but I don’t know how well I’m going to do. Our teacher is a 2012 graduate of my school who also went to seminary, so she’s currently a freshman at one of the Jewish schools I refused to even apply to. She is very intelligent and knows the material, but does not know how to teach. We also have an online program, but that has not been so helpful. I’m essentially teaching myself everything from anti-derivitives and on, so I’m not sure this is going to end well. That being said, if I don’t do well, I’ll probably spend part of my summer re-teaching myself everything because I would like to have completely mastered Calc AB before college.</p>

<p>@blossom- I have actually been in touch with multiple Jewish (some orthodox) officers who are serving on active duty and I’m going to be speaking to a Jewish surgeon at West Point later in the week. I don’t know if Barnard is affordable yet because my father has been extremely difficult when it comes to submitting FA information, and I’m still waiting for his tax returns, W-2s, etc. I’m going to call Barnard tomorrow to find out if I can change his status from a non-custodial parent to one who isn’t involved at all, or something of the likes, as he’s not going to be helping with the tuition anyway, and right now, he’s just causing problems. As you can guess I’m sure, he’s not too thrilled about Barnard.</p>

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<p>I should probably add that unless the FA package leaves us with a ridiculous amount to pay, my grandmother will probably pay some of my tuition, as my mother can only afford a minimal amount and I recognize that I may not get all the FA I need.</p>

<p>@consolation- I can probably get my ACT to a 33, possibly 34 but probably not. My math and science brought down my score significantly. I know that doesn’t sound good coming from someone interested in engineering and medicine, but my score was not reflective of my practice tests at all, as I wrote above, and I didn’t have time to retake. I got a 33 on English, 34 on English/Writing with a 12 essay and 32 on reading. My science was a 23, but I messed up the times (read above), so that was completely inaccurate. Math was 27 and again, not sure what happened, as I was getting 32/33 on both those sections in practice tests. Either way, this test does not in any way reflect my math and science abilities, but it was what got sent to schools. Once I saw my scores, I knew any Ivies and top schools were out of the question, but I didn’t see a point in withdrawing my applications, and rightfully so, as I got into Barnard and I never thought that would happen.</p>

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<p>I also think you are a great fit for Barnard and should go there. I got the feeling that you are interested in engineering mainly for its perceived better-than-average job opportunities upon graduation. I don’t see the drive or enthusiasm for the field or subject. Go to Barnard, take classes in all subjects including engineering at Columbia. </p>

<p>When I was in HS, I thought bioengineering was a cool field. Fall freshman year, I took Intro to Bioengineering. I ended up withdrawing from the class. I don’t regret taking the class. It eliminated one possibility from my list.</p>

<p>As for ROTC and medical school, if you are serious about medical school and serving in the armed forces, check out
The F. Edward Hébert Armed Forces Health Professions Scholarship Program (aka “Army Medical School Scholarship”). It’s probably very competitive and you do have obligations beyond medical school (one year for each year of medical school) but it’s another path available to you.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>It’s my understanding that one cannot apply to other colleges while deferring enrollment at a college where one has already accepted an offer of admission. (It would be like applying to other colleges after having accepted an Early Decision offer.)</p>

<p>You can certainly request a waiver of your father’s non-custodial parent financial profile. It would certainly be unusual for a school to grant a waiver for a parent who’s (presumably) paying support and whose whereabouts are known . . . but this is also a very unusual situation. A parent who simply doesn’t want to pay for his child’s education is one thing; a parent whose religious beliefs bar him from paying for her education is, in my view, anyway, something else entirely.</p>

<p>And I agree with you that it makes sense to get an engineering degree as a “back-up” plan in case med school doesn’t work out. My son is considering doing the same thing. But, there’s also something to be said for deciding what your goal is (med school) and then taking the surest path to that goal. In this case, that surest path would be Barnard (assuming it ends up being affordable).</p>

<p>I also agree with the posters above that, given your background, a women’s college is a really good choice.</p>

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<p>@dodgersmom- Does $100/month/child count as child support? Oh and it ends when I turn 18, which is in May, so it’ll be irrelevant to my college tuition. In one of the divorce agreements between my parents, he wrote something about wanting to be involved in college-making decisions for my sister and me, namely for religious reason, yet he does not want to be legally responsible for the tuition of any part of our education. Not sure how that works, but with all due respect as he is still my father, I don’t think he’s going to be winning any “Parent of the Year” awards.</p>

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<p>Regular child support is regular child support - regardless the amount. See my PM.</p>

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<p>OK. It looks like Barnard will ultimately be unaffordable because your dad isn’t going to file the paperwork, and even if he does, he’s not likely to pay. You need a new list to apply to during your gap year so that you can get the aid you will need. That probably means a mix of CUNY, SUNY, and guaranteed merit-aid institutions. </p>

<p>Prep again for the ACT and re-take it. I’ve proctored that exam. The person in your room is supposed to give you a five minute warning before the end of each section. Pay attention to that warning. If you know you aren’t going to finish when it is announced, fill in the bubbles starting at the LAST question and working back toward the question you have answered most recently. That way you won’t get confused about which ones you have and haven’t answered yet. Then work your way forward until time is called, changing any bubbles as needed.</p>

<p>How necessary due you feel the year of seminary to be? Think about that too. You may prefer to get a job and work during your gap year so that you have money to pay for the new college applications and to put toward your eventual college expenses.</p>

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<p>OP- you do not want to enter an engineering program (of any discipline) with a shaky calculus background, or without a very firm grounding of the entire math sequence from algebra to geometry through trig. I say this with respect and affection- you may be the strongest math student your school has ever seen, but if it’s a typical Bais Yaakov type school (and your suggestion that the current math teacher isn’t winning any awards for teaching suggests that it is) you will be starting freshman year with a huge handicap in engineering. You can major in virtually anything and be a credible candidate for med school, but since you don’t need to start the science sequence immediately, you can use Freshman year to get up to speed. If you use Freshman year to get up to speed in an engineering program, you are pretty much guaranteeing yourself a 5 year college career- and if money is a concern, that’s an expensive way to get a degree.</p>

<p>There are many ways to get a good job out of college with just a BA. Having a 2.8 GPA because you started an engineering track without a solid and rigorous base in mathematics is one more obstacle in your way.</p>

<p>I have no ideas re: the non-custodial parent, but Barnard has a reputation for being quick on the draw when it comes to finances and you will know quickly if it’s even affordable.</p>

<p>Big congrats on your admission to Barnard. Regardless of what happens, you should feel very good about yourself and your academic promise!</p>

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<p>The 3-2 Barnard-engineering program would be perfect for my own D except for one huge factor which is also relevant to you, it sounds like: no financial aid the 5th year, they don’t even guarantee on-campus housing that year. </p>