<p>“unfair…for the article to imply that hiring graduates temporarily is solely an effort to manipulate numbers or is common practice among top law schools.”</p>
<p>It’s not a common practice. It is a universal practice.</p>
<p>“The problem is that it sounds like basically anyone can get a law degree, if they are willing to pay for it”</p>
<p>Not everyone sees it this way. There are many applicants shut out of law school altogether. I think the nation and our young people would be much better off with fewer law schools, but it’s easy for me to say that when it wouldn’t affect me. A poor person of color who worked her way through a local public college and studies for the LSAT alone at night may perceive the door to the law as being shut against her. She’s not necessarily wrong. It’s a difficult problem.</p>
<p>Re: the new Delaware law school, if you really want to stay in Delaware, and especially if you can live at home while you go to school, it may not be a bad bet to take the free tuition. We don’t know yet how UC-Irvine is going to turn out, but they really made a splash, and I will be flabbergasted if it doesn’t get full accreditation. I don’t know as much about Delaware’s project, but if they follow that model, I might well say go for it.</p>
<p>Irvine took a pretty stupendous approach in how they started the law school – had big bucks to back it, really recruited a top notch dean and faculty, and gave full scholarships to the first class, which was very, very carefully selected. Unless Delaware is following the same course, I doubt that it would be perceived nearly as strongly. OTOH, if D has a specific law interest that does not involve working for a big law firm or clerking, this may be the cost-effective way to do it.</p>
<p>I read the article yesterday and wanted to send it to a neighbor whose daughter is graduating a year early and plans to go to law school next fall. Unfortunately, if I sent it to her she would simply think the article was not true or meant to discourage students who will become outstanding attorneys. DH is a patent attorney and partner in an AMLaw 100 firm. This article only scratches the surface…even students from the Ivies and other Tier 1 schools are having a difficult time getting summer clerkships-why? Because the market for services is shrinking, clients demand fixed-fee agreements and the budget is not there to recruit students for associate positions and hope the work materializes. For anyone whose child is really thinking about this investment, I would encourage them to read law.com-the number of firms who are downsizing, merging, etc. will give students a better view of the real world. </p>
<p>If a students has undergraduate degree in one of the sciences-then practicing law in Intellectual Property-continues to be a viable option. That is one area where starting salaries for first year associates averages 160K nationwide.</p>
<p>Going back to an earlier post (#42) – nowadays, many careers/professions require an advanced degree, and most grad programs are expensive. While law school is particularly expensive, students who are not good at math/science and not interesed in social work or teaching may still see a JD as their best bet. </p>
<p>Also, I think that many who enter law school have unrealistic expectations, refusing to see the cold, hard, painful facts. A young man in my office recently completed an evening JD program (thanks to the office’s tuition assistance program). He was offered an attorney position in the office, but declined b/c the first-year salary was about the same as what he had been earing as a supervising paralegal - - he didn’t think he should have to “start all the way at the bottom.” Likewise, a recent law grad, who taught high school for a few years, turned down his first couple of offers b/c the salaries were lower than what he would have been earning if he had continued teaching.</p>
<hr>
<p>“If a students has undergraduate degree in one of the sciences-then practicing law in Intellectual Property-continues to be a viable option. That is one area where starting salaries for first year associates averages 160K nationwide.”</p>
<p>Not sure an undergrad degree in one of the sciences would be enough. But a BA/BS in one of the sciences and a couple of years at a pharm company would put one on the fast track.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I’d recommend that anyone take on significant debt to go to law school. At least not below the top 10 or so law schools. And I’d only recommend that someone go to law school if he or she really wants to be a lawyer–it’s no longer a safe option for the undecided liberal arts major. I’m at a large East Coast firm and my inbox this morning contained several announcements of Class of 2009 attorneys starting with the firm. These people were summer associates in 2008, and normally would have started in September of 2009, but were deferred for 18 months. They seem to have made good use of the time, volunteering for legal aid, working in internships, and so on. I’m not sure how they made their loan payments, although the firm did pay them a small stipend.</p>
<p>Given the current economy, it’s probably unwise for anyone to incur substantial grad school debt. But students apparently (understandably?) view the para-professional jobs available to those w/ only a BA as offering little (insufficient?) oppty for advancement and, hoping to move from “job” to “career,” enroll in grad/prof prgms. If one does not have a science BA and is not employed in STEM - - where prospects are still good at the BA/BS and grad levels - - what to do? What advice, othre than “not law” do you give the 2009 humanities (or social sci) grad who got good grades at his/her top LAC/uni, has been working as an admin assistant (or prgm asst or jr researcher) but wants more?</p>
<p>Another big law firm partner weighing in. It is worth incurring debt to go to law school if:
you want to practice law, 2. you are going to 1st or at least 2nd tier law school, and 3. you are prepared to work very hard to have a good GPA in law school. Otherwise it is not worth it economically.</p>
<p>Does the picture change at all for particular segments of the law field - for example, someone with a Computer Science/Engineering UG degree who wants to pursue patent law?</p>
<p>“Also, I think that many who enter law school have unrealistic expectations, refusing to see the cold, hard, painful facts.”</p>
<p>THIS.</p>
<p>“Does the picture change at all for particular segments of the law field”</p>
<p>Yes, it changes at all, but I still don’t recommend borrowing a lot of money to go to a lower-tier school. A big way an engineering degree changes the picture is to change your prospects coming out of top 20 from positive to near-certain. It does not make a third-tier grad into a first-tier grad.</p>
<p>While I trust your judgment on this, the problem is that almost everyone going to law school is thinking “of course I’m going to work hard! Even harder than my classmates!” and “so sure it didn’t pan out for those people in the article, but I am going to be different!”</p>
<p>Especially if:
a) they have invested this much money on tuition (or worse, loans) and hence there is tremendous cognitive dissonance
b) the normal biases of optimism and control, combined with the immaturity of youth leads applicants to misread their future behavior and abilities
c) so many are graduating from colleges with inflated GPAs, and do not have a sense of what the work load is really like in professional grad school nor how the reference point has changed (with far more competitive classmates). All those high GPA kids going into the same classroom, where the average class grade is not like undergrad…only some students get to be the top students. </p>
<p>All the good intentions of the world are not going to necessarily protect kids from unemployment and a heft loan to pay off.</p>
<p>Starlight, agreed. But at the very least the kids have to know that their law school GPA is very important to their future, which I am not sure many do. In this environment even students from 1st tier law schools who are in the bottom half of their class are struggling to get big law firm summer associate positions. The world has really changed in the last 3 years. Lots of kids begging for jobs who we would have been begging to join us if it was five years ago.</p>
<p>Another thing students entering law school don’t realize is how much reading there will be. It is a TON of reading. This was fine for me, because I’m a fast reader, but someone who is more of a plodder is going to have a problem. There is so much material to cover.</p>
<p>I go through stacks of resumes for students at top law schools who have great grades. If they don’t have something else at this point, they don’t get an on-campus interviewing slot. In the places in which I’ve worked, the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a golden ticket, even for top grads at top schools, is an advanced degree in a hard science prior to law school. Or being black or hispanic AND a top student at one of those schools. Even a top student at a slightly lower-ranked school who is black or hispanic will be wined and dined. Two years ago, at the beginning of the downturn, there was a bidding war for top student at a very low-ranked school who crawled out of a war-torn country, leaving his family behind in destitution, and made it to law school. My firm didn’t get him. Otherwise, every resume I see is a top student at a top school and 95% don’t even get a slot to interview.</p>
<p>It sounds like some law students are conflating the law school experience with the undergrad experience. For undergrad, concerns about location and ambience and social life are a big factor in choosing a school for lots of students. That makes sense. If you’re a high school senior who’s not sure about a major, and you’ve never lived away from home, lifestyle is a big factor. By the time a student applies to grad or professional school, being in a fun city isn’t as important. You’re going to be spending all your time studying, so who cares about being in San Diego or DC or Manhattan?</p>
<p>Some of these students also don’t seem to get that they’re not only going to work hard in law school, they’re going to be working hard afterwards as well. The fiancee of the guy in the NYT piece talked about how she doesn’t want him to get one of those big corporate jobs, because she doesn’t want to give up time with her sweetie. As they say on the internets, “the stupid, it burns.” :rolleyes: Just what a potential employer wants to see when they google an applicant’s name: someone in a ton of debt who doesn’t want to work their tush off.</p>
<p>S is a junior in college with a LA major. His goal is to go to law school and work for the DA. Its a career path that I find frightening aside from the prospects of low pay and the high cost of law school but this is his chosen path right now. Someone has to work in this field. Surely they all are not independently wealthy, how do they do it?</p>
<p>Spectrum2, even those lower paying jobs are very hard to come by. Very hard. The holders of those jobs often work at them for a few years and then move into extremely lucrative private practices.</p>
<p>So true. I have seen my kids’ friends who took on a luxury lifestyle immediately after acquiring a biglaw or investment banks offer. They don’t understand that their jobs are pyramidal, and a large percentage of them will peter out not of their own volition. I was happy to learn that my D’s BF was able to pay off his law school loans entirely after only 3 years even in high priced NYC. It required discipline and sacrifice, but doable.</p>
<p>I’m not surprised that ADA jobs are difficult to get. I’m just trying to figure out how young people who take these jobs can afford to do so given the amount of debt incurred by going to law school. Are there any debt relief incentives for working at these types of jobs, (that is if you can get one)?</p>
<p>“Surely they all are not independently wealthy, how do they do it?”</p>
<p>They may have been independently wealthy to the extent that their parents paid their tuition. Some are also married to a spouse who makes better money. Barring that, they may have attended an in-state school or gotten a merit scholarship, and that’s why their loans are manageable. </p>
<p>Yes, many schools in the T14 also have loan repayment programs for graduates who work in low-paying public sector jobs. At the tippy top (YLS, HLS, etc.) this program may actually cover the entire loan payment.</p>
<p>Even if they paid full price at a private school, then as long as they don’t have undergrad debt, they may manage the loan payments by living frugally. If you share a cheapo apartment with roommates and drive a beater car, and you cook at home and don’t have kids, it’s possible to swing it at a salary around $50k. $35k makes it effectively impossible unless you’re getting free rent somewhere.</p>