<p>Being an ADA can lead to a lucrative litigation job with a big firm if he changes his mind (after he has a family…). But these jobs are extremely competitive to get, as are the best public interest jobs.</p>
<p>runnersmom- thanks for the advice; I had much the same idea. I’m already thinking about the attorneys I know that I can speak to and then I’ll set her up with a couple during spring break. </p>
<p>Another poster asked “if not law, what else?” and there’s a little bit of that going on for my daughter. Her degree is one that basically demands at least a Masters in order to be gainfully employed so she’s already going to have to spend another 3 years and quite a bit of money to get her MA. So the jump to law school doesn’t feel quite so huge to her, I guess but it’s still a lot more money.</p>
<p>I see a lot of graduates working as temp attorneys these days. They are often warehoused in unpleasant surroundings, treated like lowlives, not allowed to think about what they’re doing and earning in the order of $10 per hour with no benefits. It’s demeaning and discouraging, doesn’t allow for any kid of a life, and results in frequent unemployment. So my answer would be “if not law, ANYTHING ELSE” if you are going to take on significant debt. In the firms in which I’ve worked, the first was a white shoe Wall Street firm where, for some reason, many of the young associates were independently wealthy people from the south. My next firm was a start-up and the young people weren’t independently wealthy, but the firm had a culture that encouraged them to be fiscally conservative and pay off the debt. Among others, the one I’m at now has two somewhat distinct groups. Associates who were something else before and are mature, responsible and not impressed with the trappings. The second group is made up of the children of bold-faced names who will never want for a job. There are very few, possibly almost no, young people from regular backgrounds who went to law school right after college and have no connections. This is kind of the way it is. Actually, that’s not all. There is a very small group of Asian females who are academic superstars, have clerked well, and will work themselves to death. They haven’t hit the partnership year yet, but in the next couple of years they will be a force to reckon with.</p>
<p>To the person above who asked about going to UD’s new law school tuition free, I’d say go for it. It could only open doors for you. It’s completely possible that there will be some sort of arrangement with duPont or other companies to bring its grads in-house. If you have no debt and can take a lower starting salary, in-house work can be very satisfying and eventually provide an excellent, successful career. General counsels make a lot of money, as do senior level in-house corporate attorneys with much more stable careers.</p>
<p>I don’t know about DuPont, but most in-house legal departments are not hiring new grads. This is a change from when I graduated from law school back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. I went directly in-house. Now corporations want to see about 5 years law firm experience.</p>
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At least here in California, the in-state tuition is astronomical and unaffordable to most-- well above the full-pay tuition for even the most expensive private undergrad school. It’s now roughly $45K/year for in-state tuition at UC Berkeley – $55K for out-of-staters.</p>
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That’s why the current costs of a legal education are so harmful to the profession. It used to be that many working-class young people would attend law school with the idea of returning to their home communities, getting jobs with small firms focused on providing hometown services. I don’t see where the next generation of these lawyers will come from.</p>
<p>"I’m not surprised that ADA jobs are difficult to get. I’m just trying to figure out how young people who take these jobs can afford to do so given the amount of debt incurred by going to law school. Are there any debt relief incentives for working at these types of jobs, (that is if you can get one)? "</p>
<p>^^ Yes; law schools provide some loan forgiveness to grads working in public interest offices and now there’s federal loan forgiveness too. Also, while some ADAs move on to lucrative private practices (easier 15 years ago than today), many stay on as career prosecutors; the same is true of those workng in other public interest/service offices (legal aid, the AG, etc.). This year, it took one of my former students (Harvard Law '06 w/ good grades and prior related clinic experience) close to a year to move from his big firm to a legal services office; back in the day, he would been able to make that move in a heartbeat.</p>
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<p>"at the very least the kids have to know that their law school GPA is very important to their future, which I am not sure many do.</p>
<p>^^ Even if they understand this going in, they may still end up in the bottom half of the class (fully half of them will!). And these days, even those in the top third of the class are on the bubble, assuming they have related prior work experience. </p>
<p>Interestingly, top law schools now pref applicants who have worked a year or two, some (N’western?) require prior work experience - - so increasingly the successful applicants are not 21 and 22 yr old college seniors with no “real world” experience, hoping to extend their college experience.</p>
<p>California’s high in-state tuition is not the rule around the country, even in states where the flagship law school is in the first tier. Wisconsin, Arizona, Alabama, Iowa, Ohio State, U of Washington, etc., charge in-state students around half the price of most private schools. It can be a smart choice if you want to practice (or go into politics) in that state.</p>
<p>^^ Georgia is a good example. Unless Emory throws some good money at you, if you plan to stay in Georgia, it doesn’t make much sense to choose Emory (as much as I like it) over UGA. (Yes, jobs during school are more readily available in Atlanta, but still…)</p>
<p>Very different in NYC. The public law schools aren’t particularly strong (CUNY is third or fourth tier) and we have two of the T6 schools - - Columbia and NYU - - right in town, not to mention a number of the T14 (Yale, Harvard, UPenn, G’town, Cornell, UVA, Duke) and respectable second-tier school (Fordham, BU, BC, GW, etc.) just a stone’s throw away. I can see where students feel pressure to attend a T14 school. Still, I’d be terrified to incur that debt, and I didn’t: I turned down two T14 schools in favor of a free-ride at a mid-level tier 2 school - - but that was 20 yrs ago.</p>
<p>Our in-state public law school is very selective because tuition is so low & you have a decent shot at a law job upon graduation (tho it’s still a gamble). I knew attorneys who moonlighted as food service employees to help pay down their debt after graduating from law school. Many of my niece’s law school classmates have had a tough time finding a job, even before the economy tanked. More & more attorneys are being created all the time while many of the older attorneys continue working most of their lives (I know several still practicing law in their 70s & 80s).</p>
<p>Both my kids considered law & I discouraged them as I discourage most people. If they need to be encouraged, they aren’t ready to take the risks and incur the expense. I have met A LOT of burnt out attorneys. Some switch professions and some lead lives of quiet desparation.</p>
<p>“respectable second-tier school (Fordham, BU, BC, GW, etc.)”</p>
<p>Just to clarify: BU, BC, and GW are tier 1 (aka top 50), just not top 14. I know what you mean, though, about being the next step down below the T14.</p>
<p>Why was the magical but odd number of 14 chosen? Why not the top 10 or top 20?</p>
<p>There is perceived to be a significant quality and prestige gap between the T5 and below and then again between T14 and below. 14 is due to ties…</p>
<p>I don’t agree that there’s any perceived gap below the “top 5” – I and a lot of other lawyers perceive a “top 6.” There would be a lot of debate about which school (Columbia, Chicago, or NYU) isn’t in the top 5.</p>
<p>The Top 14 are so called because those schools, in some order, have been the top 14 in the USNews rankings for 20 years. There’s been lots of movement up and down within the 14, and outside of it, but no one has joined or left that group in 20 years. They are viewed as the truly national schools, those whose graduates can go anywhere in the country without suffering a loss in opportunity relative to the school’s home region. The schools closest to the top 14 – Texas, UCLA, USC, etc. – are perceived as the best of the regional schools.</p>
<p>Every firm I’ve ever worked at (bold faced names) has recruited heavily from Fordham. I can list countless partners at those firms who were Fordham Law grads.</p>
<p>Hanna, agree that it is really more like T6. Zoosermom, agree re Fordham but I think this applies only to the very top handful (by GPA and class rank) of Fordham students. You will probably land a good job from a regional law school if you stay in that region and if you are literally one of the top handful of students. But you better be at that very very top.</p>
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<p>Hmmm . . . I think there’s a bit of misinformation circulating here. If we’re dumping top 25 law schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, Vandy, Wash U, Emory, Minnesota, and Notre Dame into the “regional” category, then I don’t think Aniger’s statement applies to them. These are very high quality schools whose national reputations are just a thin sliver below “top 14” schools like Duke, Northwestern, and Georgetown, and their grads tend to do very well both regionally and nationally—and not just the “very very top” students. Friends at the University of Minnesota law school tell me they place a lot of students in Chicago, L.A., and DC firms, as well as top Minneapolis firms and regional offices of national firms; typically 40% of their graduates go out of state, many to the coasts. What’s changed recently is that the bottom third to bottom half of the class is no longer competitive for these jobs; but that’s also true at “top 14” schools like Georgetown and Northwestern, and to some extent it’s even true at Harvard these days. That’s a far cry from needing to “stay in the region” and needing to be “literally one of the top handful of students” to “land a good job.” My guess is it’s much the same story at Texas, UCLA, Vandy, Notre Dame, etc.</p>
<p>Going to law school, even a very good law school, is no longer a sure ticket to a high-paying job. Now you’ve got to go to a good law school and do well there. But for those who do, there are still opportunities.</p>
<p>Having attended one of the just-below top 14 law schools more than twenty years ago, I know that these rankings change from time to time. When I was there, my school was in the top 10, or top 13, depending on the ranking entity, and several of the current top-14 were not even close. As is the case with all post-secondary educational institutions, rankings change and can be manipulated by law schools. </p>
<p>That said, the ever-increasing number of unemployed or underemployed law grads with huge debt is a scandal. The legal market is shrinking just as much, if not more, than the rest of the economy. The recent NYT article describing law schools’ disinformation campaigns about graduate employment rates was shocking to me, and I hope every prosective law student and her or his parents read it.</p>
<p>Finally, I would like to encourage every prospective law student to work for a couple of years after college. Years of interviewing law students for clerkships and for first-year associate positions taught me that the most impressive candidates were almost invariably those who spent some time in the real world. The old pyramid system, which made it economically feasible to hire grads straight out of law school with no practical experience to sit in the law library for a few years, is losing ground. It is expensive to train a law school grad to be a lawyer. Many firms that are still hiring out of law schools are looking for someone who can hit the ground running, and who can meet with a client and instill confidence. Taking time between college and law school can provide that, as can selecting a law school that offers, and participating in, substantive clinical programs.</p>