Is Law School a Losing Game?

Parents Forum
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<p>My d is 17, choosing now where to go to college. If she chooses a college where she is getting a lot of merit aid, she can save her GI bill for law school. She wants to be a prosecutor so I see no real reason for her to take out lots of debt to go to a top law school. So if she doesn’t have a GI bill left, she will work for a few years and then go to a state school. She may decide not to do law but her personality is just right for it and she has a very good analytical mind plus she is a super hard worker. She isn’t getting into law to make money but rather to do something she thinks would be helpful to society. She also is a very thrifty person so I think that would help. I know she will succeed because I haven’t met a harder working person- this kid enjoys writing briefs and a short brief to her is 16 pages. In terms of the LSAT, I think she will do very well there too. Since she has been little, she has done logic puzzle books for fun. </p>

<p>Now that is her= what about all those people who just go to law school because it is there? Bad idea. It seems to me that you should have a passion, a talent, and an ability to put off pleasures to be able to succeed. These factors aren’t just necessary for success in law but also for success for just about all advanced degrees, though I do know of one where it doesn’t seem to be.</p>

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<p>“If we’re dumping top 25 law schools like Texas, UCLA, USC, Vandy, Wash U, Emory, Minnesota, and Notre Dame into the “regional” category, then I don’t think Aniger’s statement applies to them. These are very high quality schools whose national reputations are just a thin sliver below “top 14” schools like Duke, Northwestern, and Georgetown, and their grads tend to do very well both regionally and nationally—and not just the “very very top” students.” </p>

<p>This is the sort of hair-splitting that leaves those outside the industry scratching their heads (like debating the how much stronger Amherst and Williams are compared to slightly lower ranked Bowdoin, Haverford and CMC). The tip-tops schools are the T6 (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, some other school - -currently UChicago, and NYU usually pulling up the rear). </p>

<p>Whether you see the difference b/w Duke and Emory as a sliver or a chasm depends on how competitve the market is (your city, or even your office) and whether an indiv student is looking to snag a top job. Schools just outside of T14 have a bit less of a natinal rep and work harder to place their grads in NYC (tip-top firms and some of the most coveted judicial clerkships – SDNY, EDNY and 2nd Cir). One need not be at the very top of the class at ND, UMich or Emory to get great offers, but generally one has to be a bit higher in the class than at one of the T14. For most students, this difference is unimortant - - especially attending the higher rated school comes with a much higher price tag.</p>

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<p>I literally laughed out loud. Do you have ANY idea how many students go to law school “to do something…helpful to society?” Law school will most likely change THAT! That phrase has been around as long as law schools have opened their doors.
Also, the mark of a good lawyer is saying things concisely- NOT lengthy briefs.</p>

<p>I’m sure your daughter is bright and hard-working. So are most of the rest of the unemployed law grads.</p>

104

<p>If you graduate at the top of your class from law school, you are very likely to find a job in your field. Otherwise, it can be a problem My dear friend’s daughter recently graduated from a very good, but not top law firm, made Law Review, graduated summa, and is now making over a quarter million a year after working two years as clerk to two separate judges. To get those clerkships (which were low paying, by the way), one had to be at the top of the class. After getting those clerkships, many top law firms in that city wanted her. </p>

<p>She wants to move back to her home town to live but the value of her clerkships and law schools are zip there, </p>

<p>Getting a job in the DA’s office is not easy either. It is a plum assignment that only a few get. Grades, your law school, connections and minority status all play a heavy role in that. I know a number of unemployed attorneys right now. </p>

<p>Also bear in mind when you look at those law school employment stats, that a number of lawyers go into the family business and went into law for that purpose. I know more than 2 dozen off the top of my head who are in that situation. Their kid had a ready made job because of the family business. Also if someone is a major client of a law firm, spot is often found. So if you are an unconnected kid going to a run of a mill law firm and don’t get great grades, you may find yourself hard put to find a job.</p>

<p>The exception to this is if you can find a job and get experience in it and then specialize in that aspect of law. You could then have a job ready made for you since you are knowledgeable in the boutique offerengs. That would have been my situation had I gone to law school as I very nearly did. I had nearly 10 years of work experience in benefits, pensions, ERISA, estate planning, etc.</p>

105

<p>H is a lawyer and teaches as an adjunct. According to him, one important thing that most law students don’t know (and apparently no one tells them) is that their first-year grades are critical to their long-term success. Back when H was in law school, judges hired clerks pretty much on the basis of first year grades (that has changed somewhat now). H attended a law school that is now in the top 20 but I don’t think was when he was there, and by luck he did well his first year (he worked hard, of course, but most law students do). He impressed a professor who often referred students to a particular appellate judge, and so he had a clerkship offer the beginning of his second year. Also at the beginning of the second year, law firms conduct on-campus interviews to hire summer associates for the next year. Getting a summer associate position depends on first-year grades, and at least in the old days could lead to an offer of permanent employment. Actually at the firm H first worked for, every summer associate received an offer of permanent employment–it was considered bad form for a firm to hire more summer associates than it had permanent positions to fill. I do think things have changed some, but any first-year law student should be aware that the first year is not a warm-up but rather can be the most important part of law school, so far as determining early career options.</p>

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<p>“Schools just outside of T14 have a bit less of a natinal rep and work harder to place their grads in NYC (tip-top firms and some of the most coveted judicial clerkships – SDNY, EDNY and 2nd Cir).”</p>

<p>They have to work harder for ALL federal clerkships, not just these. Clerkship hiring depends more on law school name than any other type of employment except academia, and that’s true nationally. If you want to clerk on the 8th Circuit or the Western District of Washington, there’s a world of difference between Harvard and Columbia, between Virginia and Georgetown, and between Duke and Emory. We’re talking about gigantic credentials gaps here, like law review being required of Columbia candidates but not Harvard candidates. (Background: This is what I do for a living.)</p>

<p>“For most students, this difference is unimportant”</p>

<p>I disagree that the difference between Notre Dame and Michigan is unimportant for most students. There’s no question that all these gaps have widened in the new legal landscape, which shows no sign that it will ever change back to the world we knew. It might be a smart move to take money from ND over full pay at Michigan, but that’s because the scholarship may counterbalance the tangible sacrifice you make going to ND. Bringing that degree to New York or Boston or San Francisco, or even Chicago, will not get you similar offers nowadays.</p>

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<p>I agree with Hanna. From my perch as a partner in a top law firm, credential differentials are huge now.</p>

108

<p>I also agree with Hanna. I work with someone whose kid went to Duke. It took nearly a year before that kid finally found a job with a small firm in a small city. Good grades at Duke certainly did not guarantee that doors would open. Mom and Dad will be picking up loan payments for the kid for a year or two since the salary won’t cover the debt.</p>

<p>My kid is excited about being called for an interview for a paid summer job at 2-man suburban litigation firm. He knows the job could mean typing, filing, running paperwork to the Court, reading emails for discovery for 60 hours a week, researching law at 4 in the morning – whatever. My 2L kid is ready to work and is excited about getting an interview with a law firm in this market. Wish him luck!</p>

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<p>Agree that credential differentials are important, but maybe unimportant to MOST students because MOST students are not in the running for top clerkships/firms? Top of the class at T6 or T14 is what - - fewer that 1000 students? </p>

<p>Admittedly, unlike Hanna, I do not work with clerkship candidates for a living, but I haven’t seen the “huge” Harvard/Columbia or UVA/G’twn gaps with respect to top federal clerkships. My exp is similar to what Amesie reported - - profs from primarily T10-12 law schools recommending individual students. From this hand-picked pool, Harvard doesn’t necessarily trump Columbia. But as again, since the pool is so small, it doesn’t matter for most students.</p>

<p>(FYI: UMich/ND or Duke/Emory - - big gap, totally different story)</p>

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<p>“I haven’t seen the “huge” Harvard/Columbia or UVA/G’twn gaps with respect to top federal clerkships.”</p>

<p>It’s difficult to perceive this unless you’re actually reading the letters of recommendation, seeing the transcripts and so on. It might appear that two clerks from different schools have the same credentials apart from school name. Sometimes, they really might. But when you factor in the number of professors at each school who have those close relationships with judges, and exactly which judges they are, and whether the professor has the effective power to fill one spot per year vs. three, and then the number of professors at each school with such big names that they can influence judges they don’t know personally…it’s significant.</p>

<p>I agree that most T14 graduates won’t have a shot at these clerkships anyway, but when they’re making the decision of where to enroll, clerking is an aspiration for a lot of them. So it’s not nuts to think about which schools will maximize their odds.</p>

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<p>Why is a clerkship so sought after? How is it important (assuming it is)?</p>

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<p>If you want to become a law professor or Supreme Court justice, you’ll need to have top clerkships.</p>

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<p>This is fascinating. I had no idea that there was such a huge difference between law schools – or that rankings matter so much, compared to the rankings of undergraduate colleges. </p>

<p>My question – is the education you get dramatically different between the top 14 law schools and the next 10-15? Or is really just prestige – and the connections of your professors?</p>

<p>And another: If you get into one of the top schools, but are a borderline candidate (on the low end of GPA and board scores and aware that you are a slow reader, for example), would you be better off going to a lower-ranked school and hoping you’d rank higher?</p>

<p>And a third – I know someone who turned down Cornell and a couple other higher-ranked schools to go to Vermont Law school, because they wanted to do environmental law. Do law schools have specialties like this that are exceptions to the rankings?</p>

<p>One more, and this is probably not the place to ask this – is there similar stratification at graduate business schools? I have a friend who just finished all her applications; she’s applied to the top schools (she has great stats), but I’m curious whether she should abandon her plans if she doesn’t get into one of them.</p>

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<p>The clerkship has intrinsic as well as extrinsic value. It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to work inside a judge’s chambers and participate in the decision-making process. It’s a year-long (or two-year) intensive clinic in writing with a eminent senior lawyer. It’s an opportunity to jump into the heart of cases right out of law school, without working your way up the totem pole as you will have to do in practice. Judges typically remain close to and mentor their former clerks for the rest of their lives. On top of all that, outside of the Supreme Court and its feeder judges, the hours are usually manageable in comparison to other top legal jobs. Most lawyers feel that their clerkship was the best job they’ve ever had.</p>

<p>As for its impact on careers, most high-powered legal jobs outside of academia don’t actually require the clerkship – the hyperselective firms and Department of Justice sections and so on will hire some candidates who didn’t clerk if they had the credentials to clerk and chose not to. But an elite clerkship will contribute to your “brand” for the rest of your career. It has the potential to open doors twenty or thirty years down the road. You frequently see them mentioned in the obituaries of distinguished senior lawyers.</p>

<p>Replying to fireandrain:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>No, the in-class education is very similar. There can be a big difference in resources and support outside the classroom – the top schools often have more clinics, more journals, more symposia, speakers, etc. that provide additional learning opportunities. The top schools are also the best funded and may have generous loan repayment plans.</p></li>
<li><p>No, you can’t assume that you’ll be at the top of the class in the lower-ranked school. Some people do use this strategy, but I don’t think it’s smart unless the lower-ranked school is offering a serious scholarship.</p></li>
<li><p>I can’t speak to that situation, but in general it’s a terrible idea to turn down a T14 for a tier-3 school due to the T3’s specialty. If you have a full ride, or you’re geographically constrained due to family, or you have an employer waiting to hire you after you graduate from Vermont, it can make sense, but a specialty alone is a bad reason.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I think H would agree with most of what Hanna has said, especially the “best job” part. He actually gets teary talking about “his judge.”</p>

<p>I am not sure, though, about this:

</p>

<p>Vanderbilt–which I am not sure is in the T14 or not–placed more than 10 percent of its 2010 graduating class in federal clerkships; more than 17 percent in some kind of clerkship (federal or state). One 2005 grad will clerk for a U.S. Supreme Court justice.</p>

<p>[Vanderbilt</a> University Law School :: </p><div style=“text-align: left”>44 Vanderbilt Graduates Secure Judicial Clerkships</div>](<a href=“http://law.vanderbilt.edu/article-search/article-detail/index.aspx?nid=337]Vanderbilt”>http://law.vanderbilt.edu/article-search/article-detail/index.aspx?nid=337)<p></p>

<p>What this would mean for a prospective law student I don’t know, but it is not just the Harvard students who are getting federal clerkships.</p>

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<p>You’re out of date. </p>

<p>It still happens. I admit that. However, the landscape has changed. </p>

<p>In the good old days --and I’m talking about 3 years ago–students took summer associate jobs, got offers, and unofficially deferred them until they did their clerkships. However, these were NOT binding contracts–for a variety of reasons. </p>

<p>When the economy soured, many top law firms said “Yes, we made you an offer after your summer here, but now, instead of starting in September or October, you can start in January or February…or [sometimes] NEXT fall.” Some firms offered to pay these deferred associates a lower salary if they’d go work somewhere else for a year. </p>

<p>In that environment, some firms let clerks know that the offers were no longer on the table. It was, after all, not a firm offer. So, some clerks who had expected to begin work at BIGFIRM and get a huge signing bonus when they did were told that the offer was “pulled.” They now had to scramble to find a job. Others were told that they were still wanted but they too were deferred. So, if they finished their clerkship in August, well, they can sit around waiting until January or later before they start work. </p>

<p>And top students who did get job offers after working after as “summer associates” after 2L year have been told by some firms that if they do take a two year clerkship (or do two clerkships, usually one district court and one court of appeals) the firm will not even UNOFFICIALLY agree that there will be a job waiting for them in two years.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, when it became evident that many people were going to be deferred for as much as a year, some students who might not have been interested in clerkships at all if they’d been able to snag jobs starting at $165,000 decided that they’d try for clerkships. They’d rather spend a year clerking than scramble for some other job to do during the year the firm would defer them.</p>

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<p>I thought I recently read that some judges are selecting clerks who have a year or two of experience rather than picking up clerks right from law school.</p>

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<p>What about someone who has no interest in clerkships?</p>

<p>My son has always been interested in a career involving sports and law. He is now a sophomore finance major at a well-respected university - but is re-thinking going to law school.</p>

<p>I would be interested in opinions on going to law school for this particular interest. Would he be better off going to grad school for sports mgmt? Or just looking for a job?</p>

<p>I would expect his GPA to be in the B+/A- range at graduation - university known for tough grading. He is a great standardized test taker - so I would expect him to do very well on the LSAT or GRE. Any opinions?</p>

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<p>I have been aware for some time that law school is a bad financial gamble these days. Like Calmom, I went to a highly regarded public law school in the 1970s. (It was ranked in the top 2 back then, IIRC :wink: ) Tuition was $750 a year. According to the inflation adjuster, that’s about $4,250 Inflation Adjusted 2011 dollars. Current tuition at Berkeley Law is 10 times that now. I walked out of law school and hung out a shingle with a friend. Year one, made ~$3000 - that’s $14,000 in 2011 $$; Year 2, made $10,000 ($30,000). Thing is, you could live on $3k/yr back then. Heck, I bought a house year 2! Back in my day I could graduate debt-free with the 2011 equivalent of roughly $12,500 from my parents, part-time jobs during the school year and whatever summer jobs I could scrape up. That can’t be done nowadays. </p>

<p>My overall assessment of what law school is like these days is illustrated by two recent graduates I know: Girl 1 graduated from UCLA last year, passed the bar 1st try. No job yet. 6 figure debt. Girl 2 graduated from Thos. Jefferson about 5 years ago. (Yeah, TJ is the same school as in the article. The story underplayed just how low ranked TJ is - I’m pretty sure it has the lowest rate of bar exam passers of any accredited Calif. law school.) Passed the bar on her second try. She got a job (this was a few years ago when things weren’t quite so bad - and she’s the sort of person who makes a big first impression.) But it turned out she hated the area of law she’d trained for and gotten her job in. So she quit, waited tables, and looked up a divorce lawyer she’d done scut work for in law school. She affiliated with the other lawyer (not an employee) picked up a few cases, watched and learned, started making a few bucks, got to the point where she could quit her “night job” waiting tables and she’s now making a decent if unglamorous living as a lawyer.</p>

<p>Everyone obsesses about the six-figure jobs a handful of graduates get. People: forgetaboutit!! Half the graduates of T-14 schools aren’t going to get those jobs. 95% of the graduates of the rest of the top-tier schools won’t either. And half the people who get those 80-100 hrs/wk jobs will hate them (or themselves) within a few years. It’s a reality for a few people, but not many. </p>

<p>Most good legal jobs pay mid-five figures starting out, if you can even get one. A small number of lawyers make much more than that but according to BLS the median salary for all lawyers, young and old (the ones who actually have jobs as lawyers, that is) is still only estimated to be about $110K - and to be honest, I think that’s high, because it doesn’t include the increasing number of “contract” and part-time lawyers. </p>

<p>It’s a shame, but that’s where we are. But if anyone I knew asked me, I’d recommend going to law school whichever way results in the least debt afterwords - I don’t care if the school is T-14 or 4th tier. Like most other occupations, what happens after that will matter a lot more than the name at the top of the diploma. Girl 2’s route is still viable - if you don’t mind waiting tables and hustling unglamorous cases while working yourself into a viable career.</p>

120

<p>So, if I were considering the following options:</p>

<p>1) law school -> lawyer
2) library school + master’s degree -> academic librarian
3) library school + law school -> law librarian</p>

<p>Which would you recommend for someone interested in diverse fields of humanities and social science, analytical and detail-oriented, without a particular aversion to or passion for the law? I am also a Delaware resident, so I could potentially get a questionable-quality but cheap legal education at the new in-state law school. I would definitely have to pay for the hum/socsci master’s degree (and possibly the MLIS degree, although for that there’s a DE-specific scholarship I might qualify for).</p>

<p>Parents want me to pursue straight law, but it’s seeming to me more and more like a poor choice given my other options. I would want to do immigration, international, corporate, estate, or some other niche aspect of law (not big-firm OR public interest).</p>