Is Michigan weak in any way?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Quincy, admission into university was relatively uncompetitive in the 1800s. Even Havard was lax in the 1800s. If you look at 1950 admission standards, when Harvard was far more selective than it had been in the 19th century, it accepted over 30% of its applicants. Penn, Columbia and Cornell used to accept 50%+ of their applicants. Michigan at the time used to accept roughly 60% of its applicants. And I believe you have taken the phrase "Uncommon school for the common man" out of context. It certainly did not mean that any common idiot could get in and graduate. It meant that students with the ability and resources would be given the opportunity to study. Remember that Michigan admitted African Americans, women and war veterans when most other elite universities denied them entry. Cornell and Stanford were founded on those very same priciples.</p>

<p>But I think you missed my point. I was not referring to selectivity. The quality of Michigan students has always been and remains high. The mean SAT score at Michigan has never lagged those of much smaller elites like Brown or Cornell or Penn by more than 50-70 points. In 2001, Michigan's freshman class' mean SAT was 1330, compared to 1380 at Cornell and 1390 at Brown. The 2006 Freshman class' mean SAT was 1380, compared to 1400 at Cornell and 1430 at Brown. Go back 50 years and you will see that even then, mean SAT scores at Michigan were not much more than 50 points lower than those at other elite schools.</p>

<p>My point is that given its limited resources, if Michigan wants to maintain its current standing as a top 10 or top 15 university, it will have to limit its student population below a certain level and change the makeup of the student body in a way that the university receives more tuition from its students because the state no longer wishes to support it. </p>

<p>At the end of the day, Michigan's goal has always been to lead and in order to lead, it must maintain a certain standard. At the moment, the university is managing fine, but if it really wants to maintain the edge that it enjoyed in the late 19th century and well into the 20th century, Michigan is going to have to adjust and take corrective measures.</p>

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<p>yessssssssss i agreeeeee.</p>

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<p>Recently I attended a wedding and sat next to two couples, three UM professors; one was a department head. Here were some of their thoughts. </p>

<p>I asked each of them what they thought of the school and they all gave glowing references. Then I asked each of them if they would send their children there.</p>

<p>They agreed yes for graduate school. No for undergraduate. (Only one college age -- went to or is going to Macalster).</p>

<p>It is my understanding from them that graduate admissions is based more on intellect while undergraduate admissions is based more on the persevering student. That's why for years the ACT/SAT scores were out of sync with the GPA. “It takes a special person to navigate the large population, i.e. TA's, advisors, etc”. U of M has found the formula for successful students and it's not necessarily high IQs (undergraduate) but extremely dedicated students who perform well under pressure. </p>

<p>They also mentioned that unlike some of the top LAC's and Ivy's they have many students with high average IQ's who work extremely hard. These students would never be able to get admitted to top undergrad schools because of their low test scores. Is this bad? They didn't think so. </p>

<p>They just felt, and none of them went to large schools undergrad, that for most students they could do better at a different school. Also I don't think they thought of UM undergrad as an intellectual incubator as many others do.</p>

<p>Interesting perspective?</p>

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<p>That really makes me sad, actually. In my past, I've been able to get good grades with terrible ethic, but maybe this will provide the kind of discipline I need. I do really want a nice undergrad experience... but maybe I'll just have to aim for UM for grad school too. hah.</p>

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<p>mnozzi, I think the professors were giving you a very sweeping commentary on the university. The mean SAT score at Michigan has historically been roughly 50-100 points lower than those at the mega selective universities. The top half- two thirds of Michigan's student body are Ivy League material and if the last couple of years are anything to go by, Michigan's student body is closing the gap rapidely. </p>

<p>As for Michigan not being an intellectual incubator, I haver to disagree. Michigan has one of the most intellectually hungry and driven undergraduate student bodies I have been around, and I have been around quite a few.</p>

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<p>Alexandre -- not to be disrespectful -- I was just repeating what I was told. Another perspective on the thread -- UM's weaknesses. I agree with a lot they told and I will try to explain why.</p>

<p>I do know from my own experiences that the students that may be Ivy League material are in the Honors College not in the general undergraduate population. This is a very small portion of students.</p>

<p>Just two years ago, the average ACT for entering freshmen was 27. That translates to app a 1220 SAT. This is much less than 50-100 points below Ivy.</p>

<p>Many of my friends who attend UM (we are all in-state) were rejected from Chicago, Northwestern, UNC, UVA, NYU, Middlebury, Amherst, Duke, Penn, Stanford, MIT, Notre Dame, Wesleyan. UM was their safety. They are there because they did not get into their dream school.</p>

<p>It has only been within the last two years that our Guidance Counselors began encouraging students to take more Honors and AP classes if they were planning to attend UM. Just four years ago we were told that GPA was the most important price of admission. It was better to take a regular course and ace it then to get a B in a honors course. (And my high school has sent up to 40% of its graduates there).</p>

<p>UM is a great school. My GC thinks I would be admitted. I have no desire to attend. This is just me.</p>

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<p>Mnozzi, most of the content in your post below is incorrect. So much so that it would take me days to explain why your ignorant misconceptions are so far off base. You should inform yourself better. </p>

<p>Best of luck to you as you chose the college that best suits your needs. It is an important process, so do not take it lightly.</p>

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<p>Alexandre -- The informtion I stated is not inaccurate. Most of the information I gave you came from my friends or my GC's. </p>

<p>For example -- I looked at the common datasets for Yale/Princeton/UM 2004-2005</p>

<p>Yale's ACT scores (25-75%) were 31-34. Michigan's were 26-30. Michigan's top was below Yale's bottom. </p>

<p>Princeton's SAT 1370-1560. Michigan's 1210-1400. </p>

<p>And Alexandre this is only part of the story. Here's some info showing different colleges and % of entering freshmen with SAT scorers of 600 -700 and 700-800.</p>

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<p>You talked about Michigan being a safety for "Chicago, Northwestern, UNC, UVA, NYU, Middlebury, Amherst, Duke, Penn, Stanford, MIT, Notre Dame, Wesleyan". But when you tried to prove your point with hard data, you chose to compare Michigan with Princeton and Yale. That's hardly fair.</p>

<p>Why don't you look up the stats for the schools on your list and compare again. To save you some time, here is the stats for Michigan:</p>

<p>SAT mid-50% range (single sitting) for enrolled freshman class:
Class of 2004: 1210-1400
Class of 2005: 1220-1420
Class of 2006: 1260-1480</p>

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<p>Mnozzi, Michigan's mid 50% SAT range for the freshman class of 2004 was 1220-1420. Cornell's was 1280-1480 and Brown's and Columbia's weren't much higher. NYU, UVA and Cal all had SAT ranges roughly identical to Michigan and Notre Dame was only 30 or so points higher. Keep in mind that Michigan only looks at the best results in one sitting, whereas private universities generally look at the best results in individual sections. That can give private universities a slight advantage.</p>

<p>For this latest class, the mid 50% SAT range of Michigan Freshmen was 1260-1480, compared to 1290-1500 at Cornell and similar SAT ranges at Brown and other peer institutions. NYU and Notre Dame actually had slightly lower SAT ranges. So as you can see, the gap is narrowing. And I never tried to compare Michigan's student body to Yale's or Princeton's. </p>

<p>As for your statement that students at Michigan go there because they didn't get into their "dream school", that is based on your personal experience and you should stress that. I chose Michigan over 4 Ivy League institutions, Duke, Chicago and several other peer institutions. Most people I knew at Michigan also chose Michigan over other universities of equal calibre, like Northwestern, Cornell, Penn, Duke etc.... Trust me, if students at Michigan were there because their "plan A, dream school" fell through, the University would not enjoy the unbeatable schools spirit and alum loyalty that it enjoys. </p>

<p>And should you question the talent or ambition of Michigan students, keep in mind that according to the Wall Street Journall, 3% of Michigan's graduating undergraduate students enroll into top 5 professional. That's comparable to the University of Chicago, Penn, Cornell, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, Middlebury and Wesleyan and actually higher than Cal, UVa, Notre Dame and NYU. So, either the students at Michigan are comparable in ability and intellect to the students at the other schools mentioned above, or Michigan does a better job preparing inferior talent. Either way, the end result is the same...Michigan students achieve the same results and get comparable opportunities to students at the elite universities your friends are chosing over Michigan. The funny part is they are probably paying more and are not enjoying their college experience as much. As an alum of Cornell and Michigan, I can tell you that Michigan is a magical and special place to spend 4 college years. </p>

<p>Like I said, do not rely to much on what your friends, or your GC or even a couple of professors think. For every nay-sayer, I can find you 10 perfectly satisfied Wolverines! I repeat, do your research and chose the school that best fits YOUR needs. Clearly, Michigan isn't it, but that doesn't mean isn't an excellent option for many.</p>

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<p>I said in my original statement UM is a great school. I was just answering to what weaknesses it may have. I don’t want to argue but I feel I must comment again to defend myself. </p>

<p>GOBLUE81. I agree with your data, however, below is another format. (I got the following from collegedata.com. It looks like data from 2004-2005 but I think it is good for comparison use). </p>

<p>Instead of looking at the SAT and ACT mid-points, I looked at the schools for the percentage of people entering each class with SAT scores above 700 and ACT scores in the 30-36 range. I listed a variety of top private schools. </p>

<pre><code>M700-800 V700-800 Avg
</code></pre>

<p>WUSL 73% 81% 77%
Harvey Mudd 87% 65% 76%
Pomona 75% 75% 75%
Princeton 74% 73% 74%
Stanford 74% 67% 71%
Dartmouth 70% 69% 70%
Amherst 68% 67% 68%
Chicago 64% 68% 66%
Duke 68% 63% 66%
Columbia 61% 67% 64%
Brown 64% 64% 64%
Williams 63% 64% 64%
Penn 69% 54% 62%
Middlebury 64% 59% 62%
Rice 63% 57% 60%
Tufts 64% 52% 58%
Northwestern 63% 53% 58%
JHU 61% 46% 54%
Notre Dame 57% 47% 52%
CMU 71% 33% 52%
Bowdoin 53% 51% 52%
Cornell 60% 41% 51%
Wellesley 46% 54% 50%
USC 50% 35% 43%
Davidson 41% 42% 42%
Colgate 44% 37% 41%
Emory 45% 32% 39%
Michigan 40% 20% 30%</p>

<pre><code>A 30-36
</code></pre>

<p>Harvey Mudd n/a
Princeton n/a
Bowdoin n/a
Dartmouth n/a
Middlebury 82.0%
WUSL 81.0%
Notre Dame 80.0%
Pomona 75.0%
Chicago 74.0%
Stanford 71.0%
Amherst 71.0%
Colgate 70.0%
Williams 70.0%
Northwestern 69.0%
Rice 68.0%
Penn 66.0%
Tufts 64.0%
Duke 61.0%
JHU 59.0%
Cornell 58.0%
Wellesley 56.0%
Columbia 55.0%
Brown 55.0%
CMU 54.0%
USC 52.0%
Davidson 50.0%
Emory 47.0%
Michigan 35.0%</p>

<p>The top privates are tougher to get into because – </p>

<p>• They accept fewer students
• Although the SAT/ACT midpoint ranges may be close, when you look at top scores and not ranges you can see that MI falls below all the schools listed for number of students with significantly high scores greater then SAT 700/ACT 30 attending. If you go over to AA then visit schools like the Claremont Colleges or Chicago you’ll know what I mean. There is not the same sense of an intellectual community. This could be considered a weakness.
• MI does not put as much emphasis on the total student experience for admittance. Top schools expect admits to be ‘all dancing and singing’ – scholars, musicians, athletes, leaders, and community servants all rolled into one. MI is looking for a GPA first and foremost. Everything else is secondary. And this is documented in most college publications.
• I know many may disagree but here goes --although this may not be published and I cannot prove it -- the area where I live, Oakland county, is one of the top feeder areas for UM admits. Most people regardless of where and when they went to UM will admit that if they had aspirations for attending the top US schools, UM was generally their safety school.<br>
• Loren Pope’s book – ‘College that Change Lives’ shows that MI productivity rates are below many of it’s peers.</p>

<p>Here are some examples from my area the last two year and my HS is considered one of the top in the state.</p>

<p>Perfect SAT, rejected Stanford attending UM honors
Perfect ACT, rejected MIT attending UM honors
ACT 34, waitlisted or rejected NWU, Chicago, Yale, Middlebury, Wesleyan – UM honors
ACT 32, rejected Stern –UM LSA
ACT 32, rejected NWU, JHU – UM LSA
ACT 35 rejected Yale (legacy), attending Swathmore
ACT 35, accepted Yale attending UM honors. This is the exception not the rule.</p>

<p>Alexandre – When did you graduate? I have several friends/relatives that have attended or are attending UM as we speak. They love the school. But from their conversations I can tell you, you are an exception. Most people we know did not choose UM over the IVY’s or Duke. </p>

<p>Again UM is a great school but it does have weaknesses and it is not IVY. I still stand by original statement -- People in-state can’t seem to compete for admissions at top schools out-of-state. Often we get stuck going to UM. People out-of-state often chose UM after they get rejected by their top school. It’s not the first choice that you want us to believe.</p>

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<p>mnozzi, all your stats prove is that there are many students at some schools with SATs in the 700-720 range whereas at Michigan, they tend to be closer to the 670-690 range, which is precisely what I said above. Smaller elite universities of Michigan's calibre have mean SAT scores roughly 50-70 (our of 1600) points higher. If you are hung up on statistics, you win and Michigan is indeed inferior. I personally don't think there is a significant difference between a mean of 1350 and a mean of 1400. But if Michigan's students truly aren't as gifted and ambitious as students at their peer institutions, the fact that Michigan places its undergrads into the top graduate schools at the same rate as the likes of Cornell, Northwestern, Penn etc... tells me that the university does more with less. </p>

<p>I am not sure what you mean when you say that Michigan isn't "IVY". I never said it was an Ivy league. Neither are other elite universities like Cal, Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Northwestern and Stanford. It does not mean any of those universities, Michigan included, aren't of the highest calibre. But whether you like it or not, Michigan shares more in common with some Ivies (like Cornell or Penn) than those Ivies do with the smaller Ivies like Dartmouth or Brown.</p>

<p>I personally graduated from Michigan in 1996 and Michigan's admissions standards have improved since then. I know because I have kept very close contact with Michigan since graduating. </p>

<p>You say that "most people regardless of where and when they went to UM will admit that if they had aspirations for attending the top US schools, UM was generally their safety school." I completely disagree with that statement. First of all, Michigan is a top US school...definitely one of the top 20, arguably one of the top 10. Furthermore, as an "Alumni student recruiter", I have insight into Michigan that most people do not have. Each year, I personally contact the 30 or so students who are admitted into Michigan from the United Arab Emirates and answer whatever questions they have about the University of Michigan. I have held this position for three years now and have spoken to over 80 students who were admitted into Michigan. Of those, ~50% decided to enroll. I have kept record of where those who turned down Michigan decided to go and I have also kept record of the schools the students who enrolled into Michigan turned down in order to attend Michigan. Roughly a quarter to a third of the students who enrolled into Michigan chose it over Ivies and peer instititions like Cal, Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins, LSE, McGill and Northwestern. Those kids are internationals and would pay as much to attend Michigan as they would to attend the other schools.</p>

<p>Admittedly, the students who attend Michigan from the UAE tend to be relatively strong, but from my experience having dealt with literally hundreds of Michigan students over the last 15 years or so, I'd say that most students at Michigan had it high on their list of schools. Very few I met had Michigan as their safety school. I reiterate, if the majority of the students at Michigan had it as their last choice or safety, the school wouldn't have the incredible spirit and alumni loyalty it has always enjoyed.</p>

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<p>Alexandre -- You asked if there were weaknesses. I am just giving you my opinions. </p>

<p>Maybe we have a different perspective on the school because I am from MI where it is much easier to gain admittance then outside the state. If you read the Feb 13, 2003 issue of the Free Press that detailed the UM points system for admission (which has been altered but GPA still rules all), you would agree that it is much easier to gain admittance at UM then a lot of the top schools that you have named.</p>

<p>Here another thought.</p>

<p>I always think about what my father's partner's wife, who is a MI graduate, told my brother when he was looking at schools. I went to MI and became a physical therapist, if I would have gone to a smaller more elite school, I would be a doctor. These types of comments are said more often then you think. </p>

<p>Last but not least -- from the Princeton Review
Teaching Assistants Teach Too Many Upper-Level Courses </p>

<p>Maybe UM is less expensive because instead of having professors teach their classes they use TA's. This has been a huge complaint for years coupled with the fact that may TA's do not speak English as a first language and are hard to understand.</p>

<p>UM is a good school. Michigan should be proud to have such a fine institution. But UM is not Nirvana. There are tons of reasons to look at other schools. And as a mother from one of the top MI prep schools said -- after spending 20k a year for a high school education, I will feel violated if the best my daughter can do is UM. Brutal comment but this is what was said.</p>

<p>Good luck and hopefully UM will beat Ohio State on Sat.</p>

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<p>Mnozzi, you seem to have collected all the negative cliches and myths about Michigan over the years and formed an unfortunate opinion of the University based on what disgruntled or ignorant people have to say about it. </p>

<p>It doesn't matter in the end as Michigan is probably not the best fit for you. </p>

<p>At any rate, we share two things in common, the belief that Michigan (like all universities) is most certainly not perfect and the hope that Michigan will beat Ohio State on Saturday!</p>

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<p>Mnozzi, my daughter goes to Michigan and has had 1 TA so far. She is only a junior, so maybe senior year, she will have more. :)</p>

<p>She has had math professors that don't speak English well. I have heard this complaint from students at many schools. I agree this isn't a good thing.</p>

<p>There seems to be a belief that the higher the average SAT score at a school, the better the learning environment. I don't believe this. The better learning environment is the school that you enjoy going to and where you can do well. </p>

<p>You can also learn plenty from people with lower SAT scores than you. They may even be smarter than you in many areas.</p>

<p>"I always think about what my father's partner's wife, who is a MI graduate, told my brother when he was looking at schools. I went to MI and became a physical therapist, if I would have gone to a smaller more elite school, I would be a doctor. These types of comments are said more often then you think."</p>

<p>When people don't reach their dreams they like to put the blame elsewhere. Sometimes the answer is in a mirror.</p>

<p>Good luck with your college choice. There are many fine schools out there.</p>

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<p>Only 1 TA/GSI? I think that would be a rare exception.</p>

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<p>In more than 40 classes I took at Michigan, all of them were taught by full-time professors. ALL of them. I had only 7 TAs (discussion leaders) and of those, only one spoke English poorly. All of my TAs were 4th or 5th year PhD students, in the process of defending their thesis.</p>

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<p>I really don't like the way that diversity is a religion at U of M. I mean, the University is so manipulative. They sent out thousands of decisions on election day, just so that they could have a case against Proposal 2 for this year. Would it have killed them to wait for state orders about how they should conduct their admissions? They are rebelling against the people of Michigan, who have so well-funded the University. And, they give a ton of merit money to URMs who have much lower stats than I do. And they spend millions renovating their football stadiums but they can't even guarantee housing to Freshmen.
It's a pity that a university with such wonderfully strong academics should be so poorly-managed.</p>

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<p>All the Chemical Engineering courses were taught by full-time professors. TAs might be used for helping with lab sections or grading homeworks.</p>

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<p>Amen Stewie! I agree with what you say, although I believe the University is working toward improving overall Merit scholarships and Need based aid as well as building new residence halls and cafeterias. But you are quite correct in your complaints. If there is one place where Michigan is weak, it is in the way it is managed.</p>