Is MIT that amazing for Computer Science?

<p>OK So first of all, my son is deciding between Princeton and MIT and is interesting in studying computers. At least for now. </p>

<p>He loved CPW. He said it was definitely the nerdiest weekend of his life, but it was awesome. However, as a parent, I came away a bit concerned about the lifestyle there and also about the sheer size of the Computer Science Department.</p>

<p>As a caveat, I will also admit that I am a Princeton Alum so I have a definite bias here, but I am also simply a concerned parent. He will, in the end, go where he wants, but too many people have been telling him that he really should go to MIT if he is interested in computers.</p>

<p>What's wrong with Princeton for Computer Science? You can take it as a BA so you don't need to be an engineer and it looked like they also had lots of opportunities for research. The department is also much smaller. Would he have fewer opportunities coming out of Princeton than MIT?</p>

<p>Also, the following opinion in the tech made too much sense to me. </p>

<p>Why</a> should you come to MIT? - The Tech</p>

<p>There were TWO articles in the student newspaper with that title. Here’s the other one:
[Why</a> should you come to MIT? - The Tech](<a href=“http://tech.mit.edu/V130/N18/normandin.html]Why”>http://tech.mit.edu/V130/N18/normandin.html)</p>

<p>One article–this one here – stressed the positives; the article you’ve posted stressed some of the negatives. Two sides of the coin, known in MIT culture as IHTFP. </p>

<p>Your son has two great choices.</p>

<p>^True, but only numbers 2,3 & 4 seemed relevant to me in this opinion. The others seemed to be pretty minor factors in choosing a college.</p>

<p>Okay, let’s take each of those. I’m a parent of a junior physics major at MIT. Since she wasn’t sure for the first two years whether she’d major in Computer Science or physics, or double major, she took quite a few computer science courses and had a paid research position related to computer science. Plus, since she entered the Battlecode competition last year, I guess you could say she knows quite a few of the MIT students who are strong in that area. Here’s my perspective on numbers 2, 3, & 4 in the article you posted (I’ll paste in the original text for each, so readers can follow):</p>

<p>“2. The students are “smart.”
There are different kinds of intelligence and much too often people confuse them. At MIT, the undergraduates are insanely intelligent. They’re quick-witted and can learn things in a flash. The undergrads here are also very good at spending lots of time working. That said, the students here aren’t necessarily more motivated, disciplined, worldly, or otherwise well-rounded or well-informed as you might hope. People still procrastinate like none other, half-ass their work, and aren’t necessarily bothered if they don’t understand what’s going on in the Middle East, despite potentially working on the next W.M.D… You really have to remember that MIT is an Institvte of Technology, not a Bastion of Brilliance. And you also have to remember that everything I just said doesn’t apply to everyone here. There are undoubtedly those who’ll just blow you away by how well-adjusted they are while making time for amazing research and getting a 5.0, but honestly, there are people like this at every university.”</p>

<p>Yes, there are brilliant students at every top research university, but MIT has a distinct culture. My son is touring college campuses with his father as I am writing this post, but I know full well that at each of these colleges, the admitted students are attending events planned and organized by the Admissions department. At MIT, CPW – like it or not – is bursting at the seams with events planned and organized by the students themselves. Princeton students, as far as I recall, somehow do not manage to pull this off on their campus. What your son saw and loved at CPW is the student culture at MIT, and although there may be individuals like MIT students “at every university,” that broader culture is unique to MIT.</p>

<p>“3. You want to be happy.
They don’t call this place “Hell” for nothing. And amazingly, it’s really not the academics (although there are infamously difficult courses, like Aero/Astro’s “Unified,” Physics’ “J-Lab,” or Architecture studio). It’s really a pervasive mentality that, at MIT, you’re not supposed to be happy, and if you are, you’re either not working hard enough, not doing anything outside of classes, or you’re just one of the lucky ones I mentioned earlier. Every time you ask someone how he/she is doing and he/she responds with “I’m so busy, I have five psets due this week and two tests next week and a UROP!” There’s no escaping the underlying sadness that a lot of people here are sacrificing a substantial portion of their health and social lives for their work.”</p>

<p>I would argue that students in top computer science programs anywhere are sometimes going to feel as if they are in hell. I know this is true at Stanford University, which has a higher-ranked program than Princeton’s. It’s more hidden at Princeton and Stanford, because there are large numbers of humanities and social science majors on the campus, whereas at MIT, the vast majority of students are struggling together. The upside, if you look at MIT retention and graduation statistics in the engineering and science programs, is that the culture at MIT creates a sort of “we’re all in this together” collaborative environment that enables students to succeed. </p>

<p>“4. You like an empty inbox.
Some days you really have to wonder whether there isn’t a leak in the Internet’s “series of tubes” that’s spilling half the world’s e-mails into your inbox. Even with all the discipline and Gmail filters you can muster, the empty e-mail inbox at MIT is a myth. Be ready to either spend a lot of time sorting through messages that resemble IM chats more than e-mails and deleting lots of random flame wars that might erupt on you dorm’s mailing list.”</p>

<p>You can encounter an overloaded inbox at any college and university, and you can find flame wars at any college that has a strong student government and student-led residence halls. </p>

<p>Final note about “well-roundedness.”
My daughter and her MIT boyfriend came out during Easter Break, and before they took off on a road trip, they were here one night for a large gathering of family and friends. One of the men here had recently founded his second technology company, having sold the first and retired early. He was working on a software simulation and had a question about something in C++, so he and my daughter talked for quite a bit at dinner. I was impressed that she could maintain a technical discussion to one side of her chair and engage an elderly woman on the other side with thoughts about the economic problems in Greece. Her boyfriend is equally skilled at this sort of multi-faceted small-talk. I consider my daughter to be highly capable of a “well-rounded performance,” although I believe her to be quite pointy, by nature.</p>

<p>P.S. To answer your question more generally, among the people I know here in Silicon Valley, I don’t believe anyone would consider Princeton’s computer science department to be in the same league as MIT’s. There would be debates over Stanford or Berkeley, though.</p>

<p>@calalum</p>

<p>I appreciate your thoughtful response as one parent to another. I really am trying to make myself love MIT for my son’s sake. </p>

<p>I think I may have been a bit confusing in my last post. I really only thought #'s 2, 3 & 4 made any sense for why you “should” attend MIT (faculty, research and most of all, students). In fact, all of the “why you shouldn’t” ones struck a chord with me.</p>

<p>Especially the last on entitled, “you want an education”.</p>

<p>^^Yes. That’s what everyone says. And that’s why he wants to be there.</p>

<p>“10. You want an education.
If your number one goal is to attend a university that will serve you the things you need to know, then MIT is not for you. There’s a great deal of personal initiative and not much spoon feeding when it comes to classes. That means that when you do take that difficult class (which will hopefully be most of the classes you take), you’re going to have to spend a lot of time teaching the material to yourself. What MIT will do is trust that you know the material well enough to work on real applications of that material.”</p>

<p>True, there’s no “spoon feeding” at MIT. There’s no, “Here’s the chapter, memorize sections A, B, and C in preparation for the exam, which will test your comprehension of same.” </p>

<p>My daughter’s second UROP was in the plasma physics lab over one summer. One of her tasks was to install an $80,000 camera in the plasma chamber, program it, and get it up and running. When she started the position, the camera was on order and expected to arrive in about 3 weeks. Her UROP advisor handed her the stack of manuals and asked her to learn how to program and install the camera. That is a good example of “no spoon feeding.” It’s also an example of how capable MIT faculty believe MIT undergraduates to be. But honestly, if your son feels he’s ready for this, then trust him – he’s ready.</p>

<p>There are some benefits to having a gigantic computer science department - the money, for example. What particular aspect of CS is your son interested in? If he’s interested in AI, there’s pretty much no contest.</p>

<p>I’m a current sophomore in computer science with a focus in AI, if you have any specific questions about the curriculum. As far as your concerns about getting personal attention, the intro to EECS class (which I LA) is taught by the head of the EECS department, in addition to three other brilliant professors. They encourage students to call them by their first names and are definitely available to chat both during and outside of class. Most professors make an effort to learn the names of all of the students in their classes, even in large lectures, and respond promptly to any and all questions that you have. My advisor is available to chat about everything from how my classes are going to what I should do this summer. I haven’t ever felt neglected by the faculty.</p>

<p>^He has no idea where he wants to go with this. He has taught himself a bunch of different languages and built his own computer from parts…that sort of thing which is probably pretty typical for an incoming MIT kid. He is really into the whole open source movement (again…probably pretty typical). I don’t think he really knows where to go with all this passion. Hopefully will be able to figure it out at MIT (or where ever).</p>

<p>I am very relieved to hear that you have found your professors to be quite accessible since this is one of my greatest concerns with the huge CS departmen</p>

<p>MIT doesn’t really have a true CS undergraduate major. It has a EECS major, which is very much engineering-oriented.</p>

<p>I don’t know about Princeton, but if you are more interested in “pure CS”, as opposed to “CS within engineering”, you should also take a look at other schools such as Carnegie Mellon.</p>

<p>

What about the AI lab etc.?</p>

<p>^On the EECS website for MIT is says that students study either EECS, CS, or EE. It sure appears as if they have a CS program.</p>

<p>^^ Yeah, as a student who’s currently majoring in CS, I’m going to say you’re wrong on this one. While the introductory classes are focused more on ‘computer engineering’, and while you’re required to take several classes that are more on the EE side of things, you can definitely pick very theoretical CS electives for all of your higher-level requirements. There is also 18-C (math with computer science), which starts out being more theoretical than the traditional 6-3 route. There is definitely room to make your own very theoretical CS degree (which, coincidentally, is what I’m doing).</p>

<p>soomoo - </p>

<p>Did you see EECS Prof Steve Aaronson’s talk at the Professor Talent Show on Saturday?</p>

<p>^No, unfortunately I didn’t see the talent show. Now I wish I had. </p>

<p>My son attended the EECS open house though an was very impressed.</p>