<p>I’d be surprised if there were many math concentrators at Harvard who didn’t take at least BC Calc in high school. They’d be taking Math 21 (or one of the other classes listed) as freshman. (Typically a number of students who start in Math 55 will switch to one of the other MV Calc classes within the first few weeks of school. When S took 55 the prof decided who would remain.)</p>
<p>CD is my guru for all things math. Listen to this poster.</p>
<p>I hesitate to say this with mini here and without back-up, but from my limited understanding if a student wants a LAC, Williams has a good math department. However, from what I am reading here, I would be the first to concede that it may not have as good a department as St. Olaf’s.</p>
<p>I like mini’s insistence on St. Olaf’s. Why should we be swayed by the Ivy name and presume that Princeton automatically has a better program?</p>
<p>I know my very generic state u had a better English program than several Ivies when I was an undergrad. </p>
<p>And as always, the place where a student can thrive is always the best place to study. People can go onto to graduate study from any reputable program if they are talented in their field and give their studies focus, diligence and creativity.</p>
<p>All that said, Princeton sure looks like a groovy place to be.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I have heard wonderful things about St. Olaf’s and about their music program, too. Sometimes I just think an unfortunate name prejudices too many folks.</p>
<p>I should apologize to anyone who thinks St. Olaf’s is a fabulous name, I’m sure there are some who do. Not being religious myself, it’s a bit of a barrier. No offense to Scandinavians intended. Olaf is a fine name.</p>
<p>FWIW - I know several professors at Northwestern who have sent kids to St. Olaf’s and been very pleased.</p>
<p><<why should="" we="" be="" swayed="" by="" the="" ivy="" name="" and="" presume="" that="" princeton="" automatically="" has="" a="" better="" program?="">></why></p>
<p>I don’t think there has be a presumption that Princeton has a better program than an LAC. (Swarthmore also has a great math department.) But the students who are applying to math programs at the top schools will often be taking grad level courses as undergrads and will have far more options at Princeton, for example.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>When I look at the college plans of students winning prizes for research (for example [Davidson</a> Fellows - Class of 2012](<a href=“http://www.davidsongifted.org/fellows/Article/Davidson_Fellows___Class_of_2012_467.aspx]Davidson”>http://www.davidsongifted.org/fellows/Article/Davidson_Fellows___Class_of_2012_467.aspx) )
or academic competitions in math and the sciences, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, and Cal Tech seem to come up the most often. If my son is in that league I would like him to be studying alongside such students, so that he can learn from them and so he can figure out where in the top 0.1% he stands. I understand that there is a random element to college admissions and will not tell my children that not getting in to these places is a disaster.</p>
<p>It is also nice for a gifted student to finally have an academic peer group that is the same age as s/he. Many of these kids have been taking classes at local colleges and universities or online or studying independently for years. To be in a math study group with a bunch of other freshman is a great thing for those kids. This is something you’ll get at those schools, Beliavsky.</p>
<p>Something to consider in choosing a math school:
Some LACs are very competitive with top Universities in producing Math PhDs.</p>
<p>Regarding LACs, for math with intent to go on to a PhD program in math, one may want to choose carefully at least, given b@r!um’s comments in post #94 and #97 in [url=<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1414683-prestige-versus-cost-7.html]this”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1414683-prestige-versus-cost-7.html]this</a> thread<a href=“ignore%20the%20prestige%20war%20also%20going%20on%20in%20the%20thread”>/url</a>.</p>
<p>Beliavsky,</p>
<p>You are exactly right as to why many students choose these top institutions.</p>
<p>My oldest son is a freshman at MIT, with a plan to double major in math and physics. He had a choice among Caltech, Princeton, Harvey Mudd (and some other schools), and being a McDermott Scholar at UT Dallas. He didn’t apply to Harvard, Stanford, or any of the other schools mentioned, so I can’t comment on them.</p>
<p>He chose MIT (Harvey Mudd was a close second followed by Princeton) for the exact reasons that you and 1moremom point out. He is surrounded by amazing students, both his friends from the local math circle who are very high achievers and super smart, and many new students that he’s meeting including IMO winners and the like. He is challenged for the first time (and has been under plenty of stress already but loves MIT) and is motivated to do well because of the students around him.</p>
<p>He selected MIT over Mudd because it is bigger, in a large city, and the energy on campus fit him well. He selected it over Princeton for the same reasons, but also because he ultimately wanted a STEM degree and not a liberal arts offering.</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd is an amazing place and in some ways, it’s better than MIT because of the smaller size and more individualized attention. Mudd graduates do very well. For my son, though, he wasn’t sure he wanted to be with that small of a freshman class and he did want to take graduate level courses as an undergrad.</p>
<p>Interesting. I checked out of the b@rium thread when it started to crazily veer around.</p>
<p>Yeah, ba@ium’s low opinion of Bryn Mawr’s math department is not shared by the American Mathematical Society (the research arm of the profession). Bryn Mawr won the society’s department award for an Exemplary Math Program. </p>
<p>[Award</a> for an Exemplary Program or Achievement in a Mathematics Department](<a href=“http://www.ams.org/profession/prizes-awards/ams-awards/department-award]Award”>AMS :: Award for an Exemplary Program or Achievement in a Mathematics Department)</p>
<p>I’m sorry I spoke about this. This isn’t a topic I know enough about to pipe in. I didn’t mean my comments to be as challenging as they were read to be. Mathematicians and their friends, carry on. Apologies for oafish remarks.</p>
<p>My son is a natural at math and seems to be sufficiently challenged with his first semester of classes at Brown. His 3 math/physics classes are all advanced/honors versions for students who previously aced the various AP exams. His interests lie more in CS and applied math than in pure math, but I doubt he’s getting a lessor education there than at Princeton or MIT.</p>
<p>Come on folks let’s be sensible. Princeton math faculty and students are generally far smarter than those at St Olaf or Bryn Mawr. Number of majors (in math education) or being ‘exemplary’ don’t change the basic facts.</p>
<p>Math departments in an undergraduate setting typically serve several student audiences: 1) a large group of students who need/want math skills to pursue other majors, e.g. engineering, physics, economics etc. 2) math majors who like math, but don’t intend to go on to graduate school in mathematics 3) probably the smallest group: math majors who would like to go on to graduate school in mathematics.</p>
<p>A math department may be very good at serving groups 1 and 2, but not as successful at group 3. From seeing the experience of my S1 and his friends at a top rated LAC, I think b@arium’s points about admission to graduate programs from any LAC are well founded. The top mathematics graduate programs today seem to highly value / virtually require a track record of graduate coursework in mathematics. It is difficult, and in some cases impossible, for a math major at an LAC to provide such a track record. </p>
<p>And the statistics which point to strong performance of LACs producing future PhDs in math and computer science don’t tell us much about what kinds of programs their graduates get in to. With the challenging job market in academia, if one’s goal is to get an academic job in mathematics it is very important to get a PhD from a strong graduate program. Fortunately there are a large number of non-academic jobs in mathematics; something that can not be said for PhDs in many of the humanities. </p>
<p>But those who will want to go on to a PhD program in mathematics are a small subset of those who want to study math as an undergrad. So the question of the best school for undergraduate mathematics is probably much too broad. Even if we had good data, you would need to know what the prospective student wants to get out of studying mathematics 4-5 years down the road to really answer the question.</p>
<p>I agree with dadx3 particularly about the different types of students mathematics departments serve. And, with sbjdorlo’s example of how individual needs and interests help one find the college or university that can best satisfy them.</p>
<p>As Williams was brought up, I’ll add that I think the department’s strength is in attracting many students to complete a major in mathematics. Students, who, as alumni, go down a range of paths. </p>
<p>Also, AMS has honored a surprisingly large number of professors. Here is the most recent accolade: [Williams</a> Faculty Members Named Fellows of the American Mathematical Society | Office of Communications](<a href=“http://communications.williams.edu/news-releases/five-named-fellows-ams/]Williams”>Williams Faculty Members Named Fellows of the American Mathematical Society – Office of Communications)</p>
<p>On a personal note, my Eph ended up with a second major in mathematics, by simply taking courses that interested him. As an example, for Knot Theory he had a lot of fun and said with a wry smile it might be one of his least practical classes. I believe this is not unusual at Williams. And, I imagine that down the line that experience will reflect the intellectual synergy that can spark from a liberal arts environment.</p>
<p>Happymomof1, thank you so much for suggesting this thread. I’m assuming this is the right one. </p>
<p>Great discussions in this thread!</p>
<p>Stop ragging on St. Olaf’s. No one is saying that the incoming students at St. Olaf’s are anywhere close to those at Princeton. But what St. Olaf’s faculty has managed to do is every bit as impressive as any teaching at Princeton (notice did not say research) and that is turning a substantial number of lesser students by any measure into competitive phd candidates in four years. </p>
<p>As for taking analysis first year as the mark of a top math school, my son attends UVA (not known as a top math school) and is taking analysis in the first year along with most of the other math majors (also taking a proof based linear algebra course). This alone does not make a math program great.</p>