Is the academic perception of Football Powerhouses hurt by their football popularity?

[MSauce]

<p>The standards at Stanford are higher than Notre Dame because the actual admissions process for all students is MUCH harder at Stanford than Notre Dame.</p>

[rjkofnovi]

<p>Yes I am ashamed that Michigan chose him for their head caoch. I seem to recall another coach in the Big Ten who also had some scandals while he was at YSU. Let’s not think that he is any different. All of these big time coaches are paid to WIN.</p>

[rjpfl5]

<p>Now you are just making things up… Scandals at YSU? Post a link to an article… Hmm… Doesn’t exist.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>John:</p>

<p>Are you associated with the Green Wave? </p>

<p>I don’t know of anyone that would put Tulane under either of your categories: academic power or football power. Sure, Tulane FB was strong in the 30’s, but Tulane has had, what, a handful of winning seasons in the last three decades?</p>

[KY_Crusader_75]

<p>rjpfl5-- you are correct: there is a huge difference between graduation rates and admission standards. Take any selective college in the country: the students who are accepted and attend are not the only ones capable of passing the courses and graduating. Additionally, the athletic teams employ aides to help the student athletes with their academics; at the factories the goal is maintaining eligibility and at the “better” schools it is to graduate. I certainly commend those schools that do help their athletes achieve in the classroom.</p>

<p>Ohio State provides an interesting example. Greg Oden, apparently a bright young man, enrolled at Ohio State and indicated that he wanted to take a regular number of courses including some in finance. He was told “No, no, no. You will take the minimum number of courses to maintain eligibility.” That might have been two courses–don’t know. The coaches knew he would be “one and done” and on his way to the NBA after his freshman year and they did not want him bothered by classes and studying.</p>

[Benetode]

<p>Tulane has only had 10 winning seasons in the last 30 years or so (though they did manage a top 7 finish in 1998). They haven’t done well, to say the least, since they left the SEC. Part of the problem is the fact that they don’t accept JUCO transfers. </p>

<p>But no one put them under football power. They just have a Div I FBS football program. As I saw it, he was listing schools with FBS football programs in the US News Top 50. So it makes sense. Miami should be added to the list as well by that standard. </p>

<p>Tulane isn’t an academic powerhouse either but it does have student stats comparable to schools like Texas, UNC, Florida, and UVA. So I think it was fair to include Tulane. Miami should also be added to the list. I believe they’ve had some success on the gridiron. </p>

<p>Also, I think Notre Dame has always been thought of as an academic institution. Someone who is merely a football fan and not familiar with US News would be more surprised with Michigan’s ranking than Notre Dame’s in my opinion. Of course things like that tend to be regional.</p>

[hawkette]

<p>I don’t think that most folks appreciate the difference between the student-athletes at the top privates (Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame) and those at the top publics against whom they regularly compete. These are large and profound differences. </p>

<p>The reality is that these schools compete against the best football teams in the USA, but graduate their student-athletes at a rate comparable to what you’ll find in the athletically inferior Ivy League. </p>

<p>The NCAA publishes the Graduation Success Rate for the scholarship-awarding schools. Below is a comparison of some of the major Division I schools and the relative 6-year graduation rates for their football players vs their overall student body. I think that the numbers show a very clear pattern.</p>

<p>2009 Graduation Success Rates (based on 2002-3 school year data) </p>

<pre><code>6-Yr Grad Rate for Football Players% , Difference vs All Students , College

51% , -38% , UCLA
58% , -30% , USC
49% , -29% , U TEXAS
49% , -28% , GEORGIA TECH
64% , -26% , UC BERKELEY
68% , -25% , U VIRGINIA

71% , -17% , U MICHIGAN
65% , -16% , U WISCONSIN
69% , -13% , U ILLINOIS
69% , -13% , U FLORIDA
62% , -11% , OHIO STATE

84% , -9% , Rice
69% , -8% , U WASHINGTON
81% , -7% , Wake Forest
80% , -6% , U NORTH CAROLINA
89% , -5% , Stanford
90% , -3% , Georgetown
92% , -1% , Northwestern

96% , 0% , Notre Dame
91% , 0% , Boston College
85% , 0% , PENN STATE
96% , 1% , Duke
91% , 2% , Vanderbilt
</code></pre>

<p>I’m glad to note that Penn State is big-time exception to the pattern (and sadly so is USC). I think that this speaks volumes for that school and the integrity that they bring to their football program. And they provide as fun an athletic venue as anywhere in college football-it’s truly a marvel to see a game there. So kudos to Penn State for competing AND graduating at the highest levels.</p>

[par72]

<p>Duke football has improved recently, as a result of dynamic new coach and university resources. The Duke football tradition is rich from the 1920’s -1970’s ( appearances in all of the major Bowl Games.)</p>

[Benetode]

<p>The largest difference between the graduation of football players and regular students from 2009 (using data from 03-06) were:
Rank.School Difference</p>

<p>1.Cal 35%
2.USC 29%
3.Georgia Tech 28%
4.UVA 27%
5.Texas 26%
5.UCLA 26%
11.Michigan 17%</p>

<p>I think this shows a revealing figure. Although I wonder what consideration, if any, is given to kids that go into the draft.</p>

<p>[Scout.com:</a> The Bootleg’s Graduation Rate Analysis](<a href=“http://stanford.scout.com/2/827873.html]Scout.com:”>http://stanford.scout.com/2/827873.html)</p>

[Benetode]

<p>From 2010 (Using data from 04-07)
1.UCLA 38%
2.Texas 28%
2.Georgia Tech 28%
4.USC 27%
5.UVA 25%
6.Cal 24%
11.Michigan 16%</p>

<p>There are some repeat offenders here.</p>

<p>[Scout.com:</a> The Bootleg’s 2010 Graduation Rate Analysis](<a href=“http://stanford.scout.com/2/952555.html]Scout.com:”>http://stanford.scout.com/2/952555.html)</p>

[ccc999]

<p>

@rjpfl5

Notre Dame does not compromise their admissions or academic standards for athletics.

</p>

<p>Don’t buy into the ND “mystique”! Do you watch “Rudy” and cry or something? I found this by doing a quick CC search:</p>

<p>

Admissions for athletes is very different than from the rest of the student body. I know because I was a student athlete at ND and I know what the football player requirements were because I had heard from my fellow athlete friends who were on the football team. While I was recruited by my ND coach during my Senior year of high school and received a special ND application and was on “the list,” I would have be admitted anyway with my GPA, SAT score and athletic accomplishments, but I am glad that I had the help. </p>

<p>In terms of getting in as a football player, they needed to have a SAT score in the high 800s to mid 900s. They also needed to have Cs in their high school classes. There were not required classes that needed to be taken in high school like there are for normal ND admitted students. ND had classes for 0 credit that were there to get the football players (some basketball, etc on a need basis) to prepare them for the freshman course load. Some examples are math classes that fall below the most basic math class ND offers, Calculus. There were 0 credit Algebra II/ Trig classes and precalculus classes. Since they were for 0 credit, having them as course options didn’t bring the overall academics difficulty down. </p>

<p>On top of this, football players took no more than 12 credits per semester (4 three credit classes), when the normal course load for a student was 15 credits or even 18 for the really aggressive ones (5 or 6 classes). All football players stayed during the summer, took summer school classes and trained. Summer classes are also notoriously easier. Many athletes took the more difficult required classes during the summer for this reason. Additionally, for certain mandatory classes that were more difficult that ALL students had to take, there were review sessions specifically organized by the coaches for the athletes to attend prior to exams. The best TAs taught them and basically reviewed everything that was pertinent to the exams, midterms and finals. Examples of these are freshman science, business major required economics, business major required accounting and business major required finance. </p>

<p>Certain sports had mandatory nightly study hall where they had to sit in a room and do their homework. They also had mandatory tutoring for anyone who needed it. Coaches received progress reports (sometimes as often as weekly to monitor their athletes performance in classes). There were also audits of the classes that the football players were in where someone from the athletic department would actually drop by the class, walk in and make sure the athlete was in attendance. </p>

<p>In addition to this, football players have counselors to help them pick their academic schedule of classes. They get first pick at all of the classes and if they don’t get into a class they wanted, they can go into the registrar’s office, tell them they are an athlete and they will be manually put into the class right then and there regardless of if the class is already full. </p>

<p>Many of these things are not just for football players, BUT FOR ALL STUDENT ATHLETES. This is for ALL sports. Certain sports with higher overall grade point averages do not have mandatory study hall, but all of these things to help the players succeed are there. I utilized many of these programs when I was in school there and I know that my overall GPA during the time I was on the team is higher because of it and would have been had I not participated in varsity sports. </p>

<p>Getting in is not hard for someone who the school is actively recruiting. Also, it is easier to fail out of ND as a freshman who just parties too much and doesn’t want to go to class than it is for an athlete since there are so many mitigating controls in place to make sure that the athlete makes the grades to stay on the team and also to graduate. </p>

<p>Notre Dame DOES NOT NEED TO CHANGE THEIR ADMISSIONS POLICY. If they did, the kinds of athletes that would get in who were unable to be admitted before are those with a 4th grade reading level.

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=49335;d=this[/url]”>http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=49335;d=this&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>(The post is no longer available. My guess is that the people who run this ND site realized that ND’s rivals were using this post as a recruiting tool to destroy the myth of ND’s academic advantage. I had seen this post floating around the internet for some time.) </p>

<p>This should help explain why ND has a relatively high graduation rate.</p>

<p>

@rjpfl5

Do you have statistics to show what you are saying about Stanford and Notre Dame?

</p>

<p>It’s laughable to compare ND’s athletic admissions standards to Stanford’s. Any ND fan can tell you that Stanford’s recruiting pool is much, much smaller than ND’s. They probably won’t, of course. For Stanford athletes, “official offers” are only contingent upon acceptance to the university. ND athletes do not even need to submit an application. (Stanford is the only BCS school which requires this.) In ND’s case, a quick read of their athletes’ gpa and scores can guarantee them admission, provided the coaches’ consent. </p>

<p>Here is another article which talks about the ND football team’s compromising standards:</p>

<p>

The average SAT score for Notre Dame football players in 1997 (I couldn’t find results from more recent years) was 899. So, Notre Dame has had lower standards for all football players for quite a while.

</p>

<p>[DJ’s</a> remark true, not racist - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review](<a href=“http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/sports/s_187739.html]DJ’s”>http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/sports/s_187739.html)</p>

[Cuse0507]

<p>

Duke football has improved recently, as a result of dynamic new coach and university resources. The Duke football tradition is rich from the 1920’s -1970’s ( appearances in all of the major Bowl Games.)

</p>

<p>Duke has certainly improved from the days of 0-12 and 1-11 just a few years ago, but no one would consider it to be a good program by any stretch of the imagination yet. The school still has only won 19 games over the last 10 years, which is incredible.</p>

[rjpfl5]

<p>You guys are severely missing my point. You keep referencing admission standards for all students. It doesn’t matter what those are, what is relevant here is what the admission standards are for football players at both schools.</p>

<p>Just because normal admissions may be more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame DOES NOT MEAN that admissions standards for football players is more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame.</p>

<p>If anyone has published statistics showing this, I will believe it. Otherwise, I do not believe that admissions for football players are any more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame.</p>

[ccc999]

<p>

@rjpfl5

Just because normal admissions may be more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame DOES NOT MEAN that admissions standards for football players is more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame.</p>

<p>If anyone has published statistics showing this, I will believe it. Otherwise, I do not believe that admissions for football players are any more difficult at Stanford than Notre Dame.

</p>

<p>In 1997, (in order) the following football teams had higher SAT scores than the ND football team: Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Virginia, Oregon State, SMU, Pacific, Wake Forest and Purdue:</p>

<p>[url=<a href=“Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting”>Cardinal 247 - Stanford Cardinal Football Recruiting]Scout.com[/url</a>]</p>

[rjpfl5]

<p>You found an obscure fact from 13 years ago saying 11 schools have a higher SAT score average for football players than ND. Hmmm… That’s convincing.</p>

[ctyankee]

<p>Dang. Oregon State’s Football average SAT score is 31 points higher than Notre Dame’s. </p>

<p>That’s got to hurt. Not quite as much as losing to UCONN in football though. ;)</p>

[rjpfl5]

<p>More recent… Doesn’t include ND or Stanford. From an article published on December 30th of 2008.</p>

<p>FOOTBALL SAT SCORES:</p>

<p>THE TOP 10</p>

<p>School, Average</p>

<p>Georgia Tech, 1028
Oregon State, 997
Michigan, 997
Virginia, 993
Purdue, 974
Indiana, 973
Hawaii, 968
California, 967
Colorado, 966
Iowa, 964</p>

<p>THE BOTTOM 10</p>

<p>School, Average
Oklahoma State, 878
Louisville, 878
Memphis, 890
Florida, 890
Texas Tech, 901
Arkansas, 910
Texas A&M, 911
Mississippi State, 911
Washington State, 916
Michigan State, 917</p>

[ccc999]

<p>You cannot make a blind Domer fan see. S/he believes in “Touchdown Jesus.”</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>

Although I wonder what consideration, if any, is given to kids that go into the draft.

</p>

<p>None whatsoever. And zero consideration for a transfer, which counts against the schools in which s/he matriculated as a Frosh – even if s/he graduates from new school, in four years.</p>

[ccc999]

<p>

Tom Williams, a former standout linebacker for the Cardinal who was an assistant coach under head coach Buddy Teevens, thinks Stanford’s future in football is “scary.” He said, “I see Stanford being a I-AA program if things don’t change.” </p>

<p>“They can’t keep raising the bar,” said Dave Tipton, a former All-America defensive tackle at Stanford who served as an assistant coach there for 18 years under five head coaches. He said the admissions standards for football players are “markedly” higher than they were 10 years ago. “Hopefully it will go back to where it was, which was tough but at least doable. Some of these kids are getting admitted to the Ivy League but not at Stanford.”

</p>

<p>[HIGHER</a> STANDARDS / Stanford teams finding it’s hard to win if athletes can’t get in - SFGate](<a href=“http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-06-03/sports/17250736_1_stanford-alumni-mark-marquess-head-coaches]HIGHER”>http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-06-03/sports/17250736_1_stanford-alumni-mark-marquess-head-coaches)</p>

<p>Tom Williams is currently head football coach at Yale University.</p>