<p>warble, oops, you seem to be missing a few graduate students here aren’t you?</p>
<p>anything to help the “cause” eh?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>:o
Wow…just wow…I really cannot believe you guys. I’m not sure if I should be punching the computer screen or laugh incredulously at this conversation.</p>
<p>From what it seems here, you’re going to make even more divisions in the pecking order huh? :rolleyes:
H
P
YS
M
Wharton
Caltech
Brown, Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke, UChicago, UPenn</p>
<p>You guys…degrees from ALL these universities are prestigious and will get you jobs. <em>gasp</em> :eek:
In the end of the day, everyone is going to go “wow” at these right? </p>
<p>Isn’t this conversation about “Princeton being the greatest undergrad in the universe” or “Wharton kicking Princeton’s butt” …a bit too egotistical and unnecessary?</p>
<p>I mean what are you going to do next? Split Harvard’s colleges and rank them? :p</p>
<p>Yeah, let’s just cut it out. I’ll admit, we promote S above Y or M above S, etc, for the sake of our own egos. At the end of the day, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, MIT graduates are all happy and dandy, love their schools, put people in awe, and are faced with many opportunities.</p>
<p>Rather than focusing on promoting MIT above Stanford, or Stanford above Yale, let’s appreciate and love our respective institutions. Love them for admitting you, and for providing you with an elite education.</p>
<p>
Bottom line: Princeton’s mathematics>>> Harvard’s literature department</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, actually you’re all just people who put your pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else. When you all graduate, you’ll see that while your educations are undoubtedly very impressive, your school won’t “put people in awe.” Either YOU will or you won’t.</p>
<p>
Sure, but your school will help YOU put people in awe by providing you with a quality education. Also, you can’t deny that people are usually impressed by prestige.</p>
<p>so warble you claim that the students that you looked at are only in the Arts and Sciences schools…</p>
<p>what did you do with the Engineers?</p>
<p>so warble, again…you claim that by using ratios of undergraduates to graduates at a school you can determine the quality of undergraduate education…</p>
<p>are you saying that UCSB has a much better undergraduate education because the ratio is much higher than for HYPSM?</p>
<p>UCSB
undergraduate students = 19,796
graduate students = 3,054
ungrad/grad ratio = 6.48x</p>
<p>warble, oops, what happened to your Harvard data?</p>
<p>what you posted:</p>
<p>Harvard
Undergrad A&S: 6655
Grad A&S: 3198
Undergrad-grad ratio: 2.08:1 </p>
<p>and the real data from the Harvard website:</p>
<p>[Harvard</a> University | FAS at a Glance](<a href=“http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/about-fas/fas-at-a-glance.shtml]Harvard”>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/about-fas/fas-at-a-glance.shtml)</p>
<p>Harvard
College 6,678
GSAS 3,720
Undergrad-grad ratio: 1.79:1</p>
<p>
Nothing happened to it. 540 grad students at Harvard are the in the division of medical sciences, which is located in Harvard Med – although they are considered graduate students for enrollment purposes, most of the instructors are located in the school of medicine.</p>
<p>Taking that into account, the proper number of A&S grad students is the figure I posted earlier.</p>
<p>To anticipate your other questions, yes, I did the same for the others, and yes, I removed engineers.</p>
<p>
Incorrect. Undergraduate focus and quality of education are not at all the same thing. Otherwise we’d all be attending LACs.</p>
<p>Quality of education is dependent on a variety of factors - instructor quality, class size, student body selectivity, breadth and depth of academic offerings, and others.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Confucius:
“A gentleman is not a tool to be used. He is something, he is not for something.” (Analects 2:12).</p>
<p>warble, now why would you make such a false statement as this?</p>
<p>Obviously when I ask you the question, it is because I know the answer already.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Warble, so now you are telling us that these 540 grad students are located in Harvard Med but Harvard includes them in the 3,740 student figures for the “Graduate School of Arts & Sciences” in the Harvard website?</p>
<p>[Harvard</a> University | FAS at a Glance](<a href=“http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/about-fas/fas-at-a-glance.shtml]Harvard”>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/about-fas/fas-at-a-glance.shtml)</p>
<p>Is this what you are saying?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Warble, oops. So it turns out that the faculty of Harvard’s science departments, which teach undergraduates are also involved in teaching these graduate students in the Division of Medical Sciences, so you CANNOT just delete these graduate students from your ratios can you?:</p>
<p>[Division</a> of Medical Sciences at Harvard Medical School (DMS) - The Graduate School of Arts and Sciences](<a href=“http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/programs_of_study/division_of_medical_sciences_at_harvard_medical_school_dms.php]Division”>http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/programs_of_study/division_of_medical_sciences_at_harvard_medical_school_dms.php)</p>
<p>*The Division of Medical Sciences was established at Harvard University in 1908 and was designed to provide students wishing to pursue careers in research and teaching with a broad education in basic biomedical science fields and specialization in one of them. ****Classroom and laboratory instruction are conducted primarily by the 400 faculty members of the basic science departments ***and the affiliated hospital laboratories of Harvard Medical School (HMS) in Boston.</p>
<p>Why do you keep saying ‘oops’? It’s not funny. </p>
<p>I found Warblers point that among HYPS the undergrad to grad ratios in arts and sciences aren’t that different to be highly compelling; I had never thought about it before. I don’t see much evidence to any of the schools (minus Harvard which seems to universally get dinged for lack of attention to undergrads) are more undergrad focused than the others.</p>
<p>Everything he did to the statistics were intentional and had some degree of justification. Even if one doesn’t agree with removing the engineering students, does the addition of that difference in enrollment make the difference in ratios significant? </p>
<p>I think you’re nitpicking tiny details to avoid addressing his point.</p>
<p>tyler, so saying that engineering was removed from all the figures, when in fact it was not is nit picking?</p>
<p>so falsely stating that the medicial sciences graduate students were not taught by any faculty that also teaches undergraduates and then deleting these students from the graduate figures for this reason is nit picking?</p>
<p>maybe the end result is the same, but certainly there is no comfort in the figures that were used.</p>
<p>I can comment on this, as a parent of a recent Dartmouth graduate and a current Princeton student, as well as someone who degreed as a graduate student at the University of Chicago and works there now.
Yes, there is a difference. My daughter and her friends at Princeton get summer internships at the Council On Foreign Relations, the Pentagon, and the New Yorker. My Dartmouth son’s friends hustled for internships on Wall Street, but often ended up with parents’ getting them placements or in the summer employment jobs most college students get. The University of Chicago students I know are further out of the loop. The summer experiences just snowball after that.
Believe me, I always thought that these places were such academic pinnacles that one was lucky to attend any of them. I still think that way. But the differences are much larger than I would have imagined.</p>
<p>Not of big importance, but I noticed some earlier posts.
At Harvard, about one third of students are undergraduates. Harvard has huge and numerous professional schools. Harvard is not primarily an undergraduate institution, a la Dartmouth and Princeton. Nor even close to Yale, where about half of students are undergraduates.</p>
<p>Does any of this matters?</p>
<p>Only if you are a student.</p>