<p>and of course, the predictable, obtuse, judgmental based liberal class warfare comment was missing....Please.....</p>
<p>
BTW julliet, it is not the same to attend one of the Ivies as undergrad, than as a graduate student. Very different experiences. it is better to go Ivy undergrad and any other school grad..
um, no... If you want to be a doctor, the name of your med school is much more important than where you went to undergrad</p>
<p>A degree is a degree. Just make sure you make connections regardless of where you go.</p>
<p>Defenders of the "worth it" position point to things like </p>
<p>atmosphere
campus culture
friends
prestige
education
financial aid
unparalleled network opportunities
job opportunities
grad school placement</p>
<p>[insult deleted] </p>
<p>Think about the application of these issues and compare what is available at non-Ivy colleges all over the country. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you think that an Ivy degree will have greater value in Texas than one from Rice or U Texas or even Texas A&M? </p></li>
<li><p>Do you think that an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in California over UC Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Seattle over U Washington?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Florida over someone from U Florida?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in North Carolina over someone from Duke, U North Carolina, Wake Forest, or Davidson?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Illinois over someone from Northwestern, Notre Dame or U Illinois? </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I could go on and on, but hopefully the answer is obvious. The Ivy colleges are nice, but far from always the best choice and their true undergraduate and post-graduate value lessens the further you move away from the Northeast. </p>
<p>The Ivy League has a lot of great colleges, but there is great student and educational quality to be found all over the country and students come out of these colleges with every bit as good of a undergraduate experience (and often better) and position for post-graduate life. </p>
<p>These colleges also offer great atmospheres and undergraduate experiences (and, in many cases, much better undergraduate experiences for students interested in the best combinations of academics/social life/athletic life). </p>
<p>These college also offer great networking opportunities (probably better networking opportunities for their local/regional economies). </p>
<p>These colleges can also give you the opportunity to make great, lifelong friends and can prepare/position you for acceptance to the premier graduate schools. </p>
<p>There are a lot of great colleges all over the USA and, for many, many students, these colleges would be superior choices to the Ivy colleges.</p>
<p>By the way, I think a recent study showed that higher income after graduation distinguished Ivies from the others. So, Ivies are worth it in the financial sense too. Can anybody recall which study that was?</p>
<p>
[quote]
By the way, I think a recent study showed that higher income after graduation distinguished Ivies from the others. So, Ivies are worth it in the financial sense too. Can anybody recall which study that was?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>After graduation, yes, but I've seen studies/articles that say it's not where you attend--it's you. If you're an intelligent person, where you attend will have no bearing on your future income.</p>
<p>IMHO, I dont think they're worth the price at all, because you can get the same education (and a better social life) for significantly less at other 'less prestigious' schools.</p>
<p>TUOwls2011 said it. I agree! Work on youself instead of relying on the college to get you a good job. Learn new languages, join groups, do internships. Go to a decent school and focus on SELLING YOURSELF!</p>
<p>collegehelp -- which study, this one? Who</a> Needs Harvard? - Brookings Institution</p>
<p>This one does show it helps those from lower SES families, but not really anyone else. BTW Yale and Tulane are simply placemarkers for Ivy and "Moderately Selective". The fifth or sixth paragraph is the operative one (after finding Yale grads earned 30% more than Tulane grads):</p>
<p>"But maybe the kids who got into Yale were simply more talented or hardworking than those who got into Tulane. To adjust for this, Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, "moderately selective" school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income "varied little, no matter which type of college they attended." In other words, the student, not the school, was responsible for the success."</p>
<p>For some students, Ivy League schools are the MOST affordable because of the generous financial aid policies. It may cost less to attend an IVY than one's state school.</p>
<p>My child doesn't have a full ride but I'm happy for those students who do.</p>
<p>The study I recall showed that the Ivy income outstripped other top schools with very good students. There must be something about an Ivy education that isn't completely captured by statistics. Leadership? Ambition? Confidence? Social skill? Network? whatever...</p>
<p>By the way, the quality of your fellow students makes a difference. I don't believe for a minute that a genius at Harvard and an equal genius at Podunk graduate with the same advantages.</p>
<p>I think it was this Wall Street Journal article:
Ivy</a> Leaguers' Big Edge: Starting Pay - WSJ.com</p>
<p>The article finds that the Ivy advantage still exists mid-career.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't believe for a minute that a genius at Harvard and an equal genius at Podunk graduate with the same advantages.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Bill Klesse
John Chambers
Mark Parker
Daniel Amos
Rich Templeton
JW Marriott
Howard Schultz
My father
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.</p>
<p>Maybe not same 'advantage' right away, but you cannot say that after a certain period of time (i.e. first couple years out of college), an Ivy grad has a distinct advantage over everyone else. Although in certain sectors (mainly financial), it is still the case.</p>
<p>I really don't think it's worth it. </p>
<p>Life is short; stop worrying about paychecks, boys and girls, and get on the grass, skin your knees, and play.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Think about the application of these issues and compare what is available at non-Ivy colleges all over the country.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Do you think that an Ivy degree will have greater value in Texas than one from Rice or U Texas or even Texas A&M?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think that an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in California over UC Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Seattle over U Washington?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Florida over someone from U Florida?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in North Carolina over someone from Duke, U North Carolina, Wake Forest, or Davidson?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you think an Ivy degree will give you an advantage in Illinois over someone from Northwestern, Notre Dame or U Illinois?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I could go on and on, but hopefully the answer is obvious. The Ivy colleges are nice, but far from always the best choice and their true undergraduate and post-graduate value lessens the further you move away from the Northeast.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, I'm not sure the answer is obvious at all, and in particular, seems to depend on the Ivy we're talking about. For example, from what I've seen, the power of the Harvard brand name actually increases the farther you are away from the Northeast, and especially the farther you are from Boston, where a Harvard degree is considered to be rather commonplace. Hence, speaking to one of your direct examples, I would say that a Harvard degree gives you a definite advantage in California over somebody who graduated from Berkeley. {Just think of the overall networking opportunities. While surely there are far more such opportunities available for Berkeley grads in California, there are also more Berkeley grads competing with you for those opportunities in California.} </p>
<p>Now, where I might agree with you is regarding the 'lower Ivies'. For example, I would agree that the Dartmouth brand name does not carry that much weight in California. Heck, a lot of West Coast people have never even heard of Dartmouth. </p>
<p>But among the Ivies, Harvard, Yale, and to some extent Princeton have transcendent brand names that actually increase in value the further you move away. </p>
<p>
[quote]
But maybe the kids who got into Yale were simply more talented or hardworking than those who got into Tulane. To adjust for this, Krueger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, "moderately selective" school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And right there is the problem that I have with that "study": that it's all endogenous. Specifically, nobody 'randomly' chooses which school they are going to attend. Think about it: do you think anybody who actually gets into an Ivy (or similar school) will then randomly choose to go elsewhere? Of course not. Those who do that will do so for a reason. </p>
<p>Many such reasons could exist, the most obvious one being that those who get into Ivies and turn them down for lesser schools are probably unusually conscientious when it comes to money. Hence, maybe they're turning down the Ivies for full merit scholarships elsewhere. Maybe they're aiming to enter relatively high-paying majors at those other schools, such as engineering or accounting. Maybe they're going to those lesser schools to take advantage of special opportunities that those schools offer. I know some people who turned down Ivies to enter BS/MD programs that provided them with guaranteed admission to med-school. I know a guy who turned down some Ivies for his state school simply because he was a top high school football recruit whose dream is to make it to the NFL, and his state school is not only a perennial national championship contender, but also a well-established NFL "factory school". </p>
<p>The other major problem of the study is that it bases its 'success' variable purely on income, yet I think we can all agree that money isn't everything. In fact, it's only a minor part of life. Plenty of people prefer to take lower-paying jobs that offer a higher quality of life. Academia, for example, is a prime example of a career that doesn't pay the highest of salaries, but can offer tremendous satisfaction, especially once you're tenured, as that means you have a guaranteed job for life. Virtually no private sector can offer that. </p>
<p>Hence, the only thing we can conclude from D&K is that if you only care about money and if you have a strong reason to turn down an Ivy for a lesser school, then you should do so. For example, if you're like that guy I know who wants to take a shot at getting to the NFL, then by all means, turn down an Ivy for a state school that has a storied football team. But if that's not the case, then you probably should not.</p>
<p>I think the study that collegehelp referred to was from data collected by Payscale and published this summer in the WSJ. </p>
<p>Below are two listings of the colleges that were recognized as having graduates with median mid-career income of $100,000 or more. The first list is what was published by Payscale. </p>
<p>The second list is an adjustment for the differences in Cost of Living in different areas. I did a back-of-the-envelope estimate and came up with the following: </p>
<p>100% Northeast (most expensive)
90% West
80% Midwest
75% South/Southwest </p>
<p>This COLA adjustment is very, very, very general and has lots of holes, but it does attempt to get at the fact that different graduates/alumni will experience different costs of living in different regions. </p>
<p>Rank , Mid-Career Salary , Location , School</p>
<p>1 , $134,000 , Northeast , Dartmouth
2 , $131,000 , Northeast , Princeton
3 , $129,000 , West , Stanford
4 , $126,000 , Northeast , Yale
4 , $126,000 , Northeast , MIT
6 , $124,000 , Northeast , Harvard
7 , $123,000 , West , Caltech
8 , $122,000 , West , Harvey Mudd
9 , $120,000 , Northeast , U Penn
10 , $116,000 , Midwest , Notre Dame
11 , $114,000 , Northeast , Worcester
11 , $114,000 , Northeast , Polytechnic Univ NY
11 , $114,000 , Northeast , Cooper Union
14 , $113,000 , Midwest , U Chicago
15 , $112,000 , West , UC Berkeley
16 , $111,000 , Northeast , Carnegie Mellon
16 , $110,000 , Northeast , Cornell
16 , $110,000 , South/Southwest , Rice
16 , $110,000 , South/Southwest , Georgetown
16 , $110,000 , Northeast , Rensselaer
16 , $110,000 , Northeast , Bucknell
22 , $109,000 , Northeast , Brown
23 , $108,000 , Northeast , Colgate
24 , $107,000 , Northeast , Columbia
24 , $107,000 , Northeast , Amherst
24 , $107,000 , Northeast , Bowdoin
24 , $107,000 , Northeast , Lafayette
28 , $106,000 , South/Southwest , Duke
28 , $106,000 , South/Southwest , Georgia Tech
28 , $106,000 , West , Colorado Sch of Mines
28 , $106,000 , Northeast , Holy Cross
32 , $105,000 , Northeast , Lehigh
32 , $105,000 , Northeast , Stevens Institute
32 , $105,000 , West , Occidental
35 , $104,000 , South/Southwest , Vanderbilt
35 , $104,000 , Northeast , Swarthmore
35 , $104,000 , South/Southwest , Davidson
35 , $104,000 , South/Southwest , W&L
39 , $103,000 , South/Southwest , U Virginia
40 , $103,000 , Northeast , Boston Coll
40 , $103,000 , Midwest , Carleton
42 , $102,000 , Northeast , Williams
43 , $101,000 , West , UCLA
43 , $101,000 , West , UCSD
43 , $101,000 , Northeast , Villanova
43 , $101,000 , West , Cal Poly SLO
43 , $101,000 , West , Pomona</p>
<p>Now, with a Cost of Living Adjustment, the list of colleges with mid-career earnings over $100k more than doubles.</p>
<p>Rank , Mid-Career Salary , Location , School</p>
<p>1 , $146,667 , South/Southwest , Rice
1 , $146,667 , South/Southwest , Georgetown
3 , $145,000 , Midwest , Notre Dame
4 , $143,333 , West , Stanford
5 , $141,333 , South/Southwest , Duke
5 , $141,333 , South/Southwest , Georgia Tech
7 , $141,250 , Midwest , U Chicago
8 , $138,667 , South/Southwest , Vanderbilt
8 , $138,667 , South/Southwest , Davidson
8 , $138,667 , South/Southwest , W&L
11 , $137,333 , South/Southwest , U Virginia
12 , $136,667 , West , Caltech
13 , $135,556 , West , Harvey Mudd
14 , $134,000 , Northeast , Dartmouth
15 , $131,000 , Northeast , Princeton
16 , $130,533 , South/Southwest , George Washington
17 , $128,750 , Midwest , Carleton
18 , $128,133 , South/Southwest , Texas A&M
19 , $127,733 , South/Southwest , Tulane
20 , $127,200 , South/Southwest , Virginia Tech
21 , $126,133 , South/Southwest , U Richmond
22 , $126,000 , Northeast , Yale
22 , $126,000 , Northeast , MIT
24 , $125,200 , South/Southwest , U Texas
25 , $124,444 , West , UC Berkeley
26 , $124,000 , Northeast , Harvard
27 , $122,250 , Midwest , Illinois Tech
28 , $122,133 , South/Southwest , Emory
29 , $121,067 , South/Southwest , American U
30 , $120,625 , Midwest , Case Western
31 , $120,125 , Midwest , U Illinois
32 , $120,000 , Northeast , U Penn
33 , $119,875 , Midwest , Northwestern
34 , $119,750 , Midwest , U Missouri (Rolla)
35 , $118,267 , South/Southwest , U Tulsa
36 , $118,113 , South/Southwest , Baylor
37 , $117,778 , West , Colorado Sch of Mines
38 , $117,200 , South/Southwest , U Florida
39 , $116,667 , West , Occidental
40 , $116,250 , Midwest , U Michigan
41 , $114,667 , South/Southwest , U Georgia
41 , $114,667 , South/Southwest , Clemson
43 , $114,000 , Northeast , Worcester
43 , $114,000 , Northeast , Polytechnic Univ NY
43 , $114,000 , Northeast , Cooper Union
46 , $113,933 , South/Southwest , Auburn
47 , $113,125 , Midwest , Purdue
48 , $112,222 , West , UCLA
48 , $112,222 , West , UCSD
48 , $112,222 , West , Cal Poly SLO
48 , $112,222 , West , Pomona
52 , $111,067 , South/Southwest , NC State
53 , $111,000 , Northeast , Carnegie Mellon
54 , $110,667 , West , USC
54 , $110,667 , West , UC Davis
56 , $110,500 , Midwest , Marquette
57 , $110,400 , South/Southwest , U Arkansas
58 , $110,375 , Midwest , DePauw
59 , $110,000 , Northeast , Cornell
59 , $110,000 , Northeast , Rensselaer
59 , $110,000 , Northeast , Bucknell
62 , $109,750 , Midwest , U Wisconsin
63 , $109,067 , South/Southwest , Howard
64 , $109,000 , Northeast , Brown
65 , $108,667 , South/Southwest , U North Carolina
66 , $108,533 , South/Southwest , U Alabama
67 , $108,444 , West , U Colorado
68 , $108,000 , Northeast , Colgate
69 , $107,750 , Midwest , St. Olaf
70 , $107,444 , West , UC Irvine
71 , $107,000 , Northeast , Columbia
71 , $107,000 , Northeast , Amherst
71 , $107,000 , Northeast , Bowdoin
71 , $107,000 , Northeast , Lafayette
75 , $106,625 , Midwest , Michigan State
76 , $106,000 , Northeast , Holy Cross
77 , $105,750 , Midwest , Iowa State
78 , $105,556 , West , UC Santa Barbara
79 , $105,250 , Midwest , U Minnesota
80 , $105,000 , Northeast , Lehigh
80 , $105,000 , Northeast , Stevens Institute
80 , $105,000 , Midwest , Indiana U
83 , $104,875 , Midwest , U Iowa
84 , $104,625 , Midwest , Ohio State
85 , $104,400 , South/Southwest , U Kentucky
86 , $104,375 , Midwest , Denison
87 , $104,133 , South/Southwest , Texas Christian
88 , $104,000 , Northeast , Swarthmore
89 , $103,625 , Midwest , U Oklahoma
90 , $103,000 , Northeast , Boston Coll
91 , $102,000 , Northeast , Williams
91 , $102,000 , Midwest , U Kansas
91 , $102,000 , Midwest , Oberlin
94 , $101,250 , Midwest , U Missouri (Colu)
95 , $101,125 , Midwest , U Nebraska
96 , $101,000 , Northeast , Villanova
97 , $99,467 , South/Southwest , U Tennessee
98 , $98,750 , Midwest , Kansas State
99 , $98,444 , West , BYU
100 , $97,900 , Northeast , Wesleyan</p>
<p>sakky,
I would probably agree with your assignment of higher status to HYP. Frankly, I think that the other Ivies get a major prestige boost as a result of their affiliation with HYP and this carries them significantly higher in the minds of some. Without such affiliation, their prestige (and likely popularity among college applicants) would take them closer to the level of a Carnegie Mellon or a Tufts which clearly are excellent schools, but don't have that same cachet without the Ivy label.</p>
<p>Well I doubt it's going to make much of a difference if you went to Dartmouth or CMU/Tufts...</p>
<p>TUOwl,
I would agree. I doubt that many Ivy defenders would. </p>
<p>BTW, Tufts did not provide enough data points to the Payscale survey for them to publish a number and thus that is why their numbers are not included above. Other prominent colleges in the same circumstances with insufficient data were Wash U, Johns Hopkins, Wake Forest, Brandeis, W&M, U Rochester, and others.</p>
<p>I agree with Hawkette about the Ivy label. People may not have heard of Dartmouth, but when you mentioned that it's part of the Ivy league, they immediatly realize the caliber of the students, fairly or unfairly. It was said that two of the biggest marketing hypes in the word are the ipod and Ivy league. The Ivy league brand is definitely well known everywhere.</p>
<p>Eight of the top 17 PhD producers are the Ivies (among universities).</p>
<p>When you ask whether the Ivy League is worth it compared to in-state tuition at a so-called Public Ivy, then money enters the debate. But, when you compare the Ivies to other private schools, money is not a factor and it is hard to justify passing up an Ivy in favor of another private school. I would say there are two different questions. Is an Ivy worth it compared to an in-state public? Is an Ivy worth it compared to another private?</p>
<p>sakky-
It also depends on the discipline. A business degree from Wharton cariies a lot of weight, for example.</p>
<p>Hawkette,
I thought the SF Bay area is more expensive than the NE.</p>