<p>professor,
The COLA numbers are really broad, so please don't read too finely. I actually did a more detailed analysis and used the top 10 cities in each region, but got results that were even further apart than what I used, eg, the South/Southwest was almost 50% less than the Northeast and yet I used a 75% differential measurement for the South/Southwest. </p>
<p>Take the above numbers with a laaaaaaarge grain of salt, but they could be broadly accurate.</p>
<p>I definitely don't think it's worth it just for the name. They're all great schools, so their education is worth as much as any great university. Yeah, there is some sort of magical aura surrounding the Ivies, and some invisible bond connecting all of them in this magical aura, but, remember, the band is invisible so doesn't count for much. (Pretend that made sense.)</p>
<p>If I get into, say, Yale and Stanford, there's no objective reason that Yale is more 'worth it' just because it's an Ivy, you know? If I get into Brown and UChicago, there's no objective that Brown is more 'worth it'. It depends on what you want out of a school - location, atmosphere, student activities, majors, blah blah - regardless of its place in the most illustrious sports conference evar.</p>
<p>If "revealed preference" (aka "win ratios") indicates relative worth, then the Ivies are worth it. Eight of the top 12 schools in the revealed preference study were Ivies. The non-Ivies among the top 12 include Caltech and MIT (tech schools), Stanford, and Notre Dame. Notre Dame snuck in there because it has special appeal to Catholics.</p>
<p>If you let the marketplace determine worth, then the Ivies are worth it.</p>
<p>Well my preference would be the major sports schools with good academics, so....?</p>
<p>
[quote]
. Without such affiliation, their prestige (and likely popularity among college applicants) would take them closer to the level of a Carnegie Mellon or a Tufts which clearly are excellent schools, but don't have that same cachet without the Ivy label.
[/quote]
What a ridiculous statement. The Ivies (any of them) are by every measure superior to CMU and Tufts. There is a reason most of the Ivies are top 10 ranked and all are in the top 16 (?). The point is an Ivy degree carries weight in every part of the country for employers and transcends the regional prestige issues that affect schools like Berkeley, Rice, Emory ect... They well deserve their reputation, because they are very wealthy, have great faculty, great students and provide many opportunities for graduates. Is the Ivy league worth it? You just need to look to the craze of high school students to answer that.</p>
<p>collegehelp --</p>
<p>I think business people would agree about Wharton. To a business person, I think the heirarchy and acronym is: WHYP, with Wharton in first postion above HYP.</p>
<p>I've never seen the data, but I suspect Wharton admissions % is similar to HYP, if not lower.</p>
<p>Because high school students that have never had a real job or experienced anything other than their school's education system are the best determiners of something's quality.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>When did you start considering engineering as high paying? ;)</p>
<p>Bescraze,</p>
<p>Like many people on these boards, I think you underrate Rice and Emory. And I absolutely think that you underrate their relative strength in their home regions vs the non-HYP Ivies. </p>
<p>As for your reasons of why you feel the Ivies are so superior, consider a few numbers:</p>
<p>WEALTH OF THE SCHOOL</p>
<p>Endowment Size and Per Capita</p>
<p>$4.663 billion, $907,589 Rice
$5.561 billion, $518,529 Emory</p>
<p>$6.635 billion, $295,580 U Penn
$7.150 billion, $310,861 Columbia
$3.760 billion, $642,885 Dartmouth
$2.780 billion, $340,159 Brown
$5.425 billion, $273,976 Cornell</p>
<p>STUDENT QUALITY</p>
<p>SAT Scores</p>
<p>1310-1530 (1420) Rice
1300-1470 (1385) Emory</p>
<p>1330-1530 (1430) U Penn
1360-1540 (1430) Columbia
1330-1550 (1440) Dartmouth
1330-1530 (1430) Brown
1290-1500 (1395) Cornell</p>
<p>% of SAT CR scorers with 700+ scores, SAT M scorers with 700+ scores</p>
<p>53%, 64% Rice
48%, 56% Emory</p>
<p>55%, 67% U Penn
65%, 67% Columbia
65%, 65% Dartmouth
61%, 66% Brown
42%, 59% Cornell</p>
<p>ACT Scores</p>
<p>29-34 (31.5) Rice
29-33 (31) Emory</p>
<p>31-34 (32.5) U Penn
30-34 (32) Columbia
29-34 (31.5) Dartmouth
28-33 (30.5) Brown
28-32 (30) Cornell</p>
<p>% of ACT scorers with 30+ scores</p>
<p>71% Rice
70% Emory</p>
<p>70% U Penn
79% Columbia
67% Dartmouth
63% Brown
58% Cornell</p>
<p>FACULTY & CLASS SIZE MEASUREMENTS</p>
<p>Student Faculty Ratio</p>
<p>5/1 Rice
7/1 Emory</p>
<p>6/1 U Penn
6/1 Columbia
8/1 Dartmouth
8/1 Brown
10/1 Cornell</p>
<p>% of classes with under 20 students, 20-50 students, more than 50 students</p>
<p>68%, 25%, 7% Rice
68%, 25%, 6% Emory</p>
<p>74%, 19%, 7% U Penn
76%, 16%, 8% Columbia
64%, 27%, 9% Dartmouth
70%, 29%, 9% Brown
60%, 23%, 17% Cornell</p>
<p>Ranked by USNWR for Classroom Teaching Excellence</p>
<p>YES Rice
YES Emory</p>
<p>NO U Penn
NO Columbia
YES Dartmouth
YES Brown
NO Cornell</p>
<p>The Ivy League is filled with snobby, pretentious and cutthroat kids. I turned down three Ivies to attend an equally respectable top 10 university, which I fell in love with because of its social student body and friendly atmosphere. Most kids I met at Harvard Prefrosh weekend were busy talking about their SAT scores while kids I met at my current school and other state schools I visited were more laid back and were actually interested in discussing politics and sports and finding out where the parties were at that weekend.</p>
<p>Do you want to spend your Saturdays studying in the library and playing board games or tailgating in the beautiful sunshine, cheering on your football team and then going to a club? It's not even a question.</p>
<p>FYI, I'm working at one of the two remaining bulge-bracket IBanks next year with a bunch of kids from Harvard and Wharton and I can tell you from talking to them that I had more fun in college than all of them combined and STILL ended up with the same job. The Ivy League IS NOT WORTH IT.</p>
<p>Save some money and go to a good state school. If you work hard, you will end up in the same place. If you do get a good job, then you'll have the personal satisfaction of knowing that you spent 4 years of college hanging out with hot girls and partying every weekend and ENDED IN THE SAME PLACE as many Harvard or MIT kids who somehow thought that going to HYPSM and doing well would get them some sort of golden job that only HYPSM kids have access to and that sacrificing a social life in college is worth it in the long run.</p>
<p>Ring -- you say you went to a Top 10 (no publics in the top 20), yet you advise going to a top state school. While I don't disagree with that opinion (I did both), your inconsistency bothers me... I'm not sure if the non sequitur bothers me, or the sense because of that inconsistency you're not on the level with us.</p>
<p>I'm glad you've been offered at MS. My niece did her internship in GS' Chicago office, and I don't expect there will be many if any offers forthcoming in light of recent developments. I've got my fingers crossed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Frankly, I think that the other Ivies get a major prestige boost as a result of their affiliation with HYP and this carries them significantly higher in the minds of some. Without such affiliation, their prestige (and likely popularity among college applicants) would take them closer to the level of a Carnegie Mellon or a Tufts which clearly are excellent schools, but don't have that same cachet without the Ivy label.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I disagree. What you say might be more true for a Dartmouth or a Brown. But, if you look at Columbia or Cornell, their prestige comes from the strength of their academic programs and the contributions they make to research. Carnegie Mellon and Tufts don't have the international prestige, the prestige within academia, and the graduate programs that C and C do. As for Penn, Penn's prestige is driven by Wharton, not its Ivy League status. </p>
<p>If you look at the posts on CC, you can see that most students regard Stanford or MIT or Duke as equally prestigous as the Ivy League schools. So, it's not the Ivy label that makes these schools prestigous. The schools you are always pimping (Rice, Vanderbilt, Emory, etc.) lack prestige because 1) they're in undesirable locations 2) they have few notable academic departments 3) the South has some negative connotations associated with it. Top phD's from outside America and top HS students in America don't want to go to these schools because the South is regarded as homogeneous, backwards, and racist. I've lived 5+ years each on the East Coast, Midwest, and West Coast and I simply haven't met too many people who are looking to go to the South. And it has nothing to do with the lack of Ivy League schools there.</p>
<p>
[quote]
When did you start considering engineering as high paying?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, high paying relative to the liberal arts majors. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The Ivy League is filled with snobby, pretentious and cutthroat kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you want to spend your Saturdays studying in the library and playing board games or tailgating in the beautiful sunshine, cheering on your football team and then going to a club? It's not even a question
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ha! I would argue that plenty of state schools are at least as snobby, pretentious, and cutthroat as the Ivies, and maybe even more so, especially the cutthroatedness. In fact, I can think of one particular public school that shall remain unnamed whose own student body, according to the Fiske Guide, describes itself as cutthroat. Ivy students enjoy one great advantage: with the possible exception of Cornell, it's practically impossible to actually flunk out. Maybe you'll get mediocre grades, but at least you'll graduate. No such assurance exists at many public schools, and in fact, the weeder curves often times demands that some students must fail, which spawns the cutthroatedness as students figure that if somebody is going to flunk, better that it be somebody else rather than them. Hence, if anything, it may well be the public school students who are forced to be in the library on Saturdays studying because they're scared of failing, and the Ivy students who are enjoying life with no such fears (because nobody fails). </p>
<p>
[quote]
FYI, I'm working at one of the two remaining bulge-bracket IBanks next year with a bunch of kids from Harvard and Wharton and I can tell you from talking to them that I had more fun in college than all of them combined and STILL ended up with the same job. The Ivy League IS NOT WORTH IT.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can't speak for Wharton, but I can tell that the Harvard kids have a lot of fun; heck, almost obscene amounts of fun. Boston/Cambridge is one of the most interesting college towns in the world and, like I said, they never really have to worry about failing. I can tell you for a fact that these kids had far far more fun than the state school kids I know.</p>
<p>
[quote]
1) they're in undesirable locations 2) they have few notable academic departments
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sounds like Brown and Dartmouth to me.</p>
<p>And yes, it is quite possible to have a lot of fun at the Ivies and graduate and even do pretty well academically.</p>
<p>hawkette by your data the Ivies do tend to come out on top. Yet, in terms of selectivity, academic strength and prestige (along with everything else you referred too) the Ivies do tend to win out. I am not shooting down Emory, where my two cousins went but I can tell you from their intelligence and their job future prospects as of now is far difference from my two other cousins who graduated Yale. They are great schools, but you can't honestly believe they are on par with the Ivies. Across the country, an ivy league degree (admittedly some more than others) gives off a sense of intelligence, whether deserved or not. The smartest kids from Hs (for the most part) go to these top schools along with Stanford, DUke and MIT and thus their graduates are the best of the brightest. You can go anywhere and be successful, but an ivy league education absolutely helps along the way,</p>
<p>
[quote]
The schools you are always pimping (Rice, Vanderbilt, Emory, etc.) lack prestige because 1) they're in undesirable locations
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Houston, Nashville and Atlanta are undesirable? News to me...</p>
<p>COFHE, The Consortium on Financing Higher Education, has 31 member colleges and universities and was founded in 1971 " to examine how selective, private colleges and universities could discuss their commitment to providing exceptional educational opportunities for highly talented students as well as best practices in fiscal management." The results of the COFHE survey are described in the article below:</p>
<p>News</p>
<p>Class of 2006 Dissatisfied with Advising, Social Experience
As social life marks heat up, seniors still lukewarm on concentration advising</p>
<p>Published On 10/19/2006 3:48:28 AM
By ALEXANDER D. BLANKFEIN
Crimson Staff Writer</p>
<p>Despite the College’s recent efforts to improve the undergraduate experience, members of the Class of 2006 said that overall, they were less than satisfied with their advising and social experiences. This continues a three-year trend of dissatisfaction among undergraduates.
The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Class of 2006 Dissatisfied with Advising, Social Experience</p>
<p>This one is from The Boston Globe:</p>
<p>"Student life at Harvard lags peer schools, poll finds"</p>
<p>By Marcella Bombardieri, Boston Globe Staff</p>
<p>
[quote]
Student satisfaction at Harvard College ranks near the bottom of a group of 31 elite private colleges, according to an analysis of survey results that finds that Harvard students are disenchanted with the faculty and social life on campus.
[/quote]
The article also notes that
[quote]
. . . students can go through four years on campus with limited contact with professors. They often take large lecture classes, divided into sections headed by graduate student ''teaching fellows." Small classes are frequently taught by temporary instructors instead of regular, tenure-track professors. And in many cases, advisers are not professors, either, but graduate students, administrators, or full-time advisers.
[/quote]
<p>Prestige isn't everything.</p>
<p>In a word ... Yes</p>
<p>I have seen employers get all weak-kneed and flustered when they have to interview an Ivy League graduate for a job opening. I know of Ivy Leaguers who have been offered positions for which they had no particular expertise, except for their Ivy League degrees. One employer explained his reasoning "He/She graduated from an Ivy League Institution, ergo he/she must be smart enough to do the job."</p>
<p>I know job seekers from other colleges and universities with both expertise and experience get passed over for jobs that went to newly minted Ivy League graduates.</p>
<p>It might not be fair, but that is the way the world works.</p>
<p>I would say Dartmouth and Brown have, along with Princeton and maybe Cornell, the best locations among the Ivies!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sounds like Brown and Dartmouth to me.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hence, I said Hawkette's comments were most applicable to Brown and Dartmouth. I personally don't understand the attraction to these two schools and I never applied to them. Perhaps they would lose something if they weren't in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>I personally don't consider Brown and Dartmouth to be better than Rice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Houston, Nashville and Atlanta are undesirable? News to me...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They are compared to Boston or NYC. I think many East and West Coasters would rather stay in rural/suburban areas on the East and West Coasts rather than traverse down to the South. There is just a lot of incompatibility b/w the Southern culture and the cultures found elsewhere in the US.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, from what I've seen, the power of the Harvard brand name actually increases the farther you are away from the Northeast
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Certainly the brand-name power of the top Ivies (HYP) and just a few other Ivy Plus colleges (e.g., Stanford) is very strong indeed on the western rim of the Pacific.</p>