Is There Really An Education Crisis?

Parents Forum
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<p>There are different lenses one could use when looking at the education “crisis” in our country. One focus could be to analyze the students who attend those schools that do prepare them very well to be competitive for all those fancy schools listed in the first pages of the USNews annual Best Colleges vanity listing. Fwiw, this very much represents the audience and participants of College Confidential. </p>

<p>On the other hand, one could focus on the lowest quartiles in both education performance and SES. For instance, one could put together numbers that are easy to understand. If 100 students enter kindergarten, how many enter 9th grade, how many finish high school, and how many earn a bachelor’s degree. Do the exercise for kids who attend a prestigious district a la Syosset (or plenty of others) and do it for urban areas in Detroit and Chicago. </p>

<p>Fwiw, even countries with better achievements than the US, are still struggling with the themes of equality and access in education. In a prior thread, Katliamom mentioned the separation in various tracks of students at an early age. Despite its (relative) success in a country like Belgium, the country is in the middle of a feisty debate to change the system to a unique pipeline through the first nine grades. And, as usual, the debates pits the have-a-lot against the have-nots. And, as an additional FIY, the country and its famous capital Brussels, has a high level of first and second generation immigrants.</p>

<p>All in all, systems of education should not be measured at the top only, as the real problems and crisis have bigger impacts on the bottom quartiles. Some cynics like to say that our system does very well in delivering the small percentage of scientists and leaders, a very large percentage of Walmart workers and customers, and the still-so important masses of uneducated that fix our roofs, gardens, HVAC, if not our cars!</p>

<p>PS Regarding ECs and similar requirements known in the US, I can use the examples of my Belgian cousins. They did not have to worry about it when applying to local universities, as their admission was automatically earned by graduating from high school and passing a HS final exam. On the other hand, their employers DID look for EC and leadership after graduation. It is fair to assume that the requirements for EC start when selections become more competitive. </p>

<p>Another example are languages. A high school student can graduate from high school without being fluent in French, Dutch, English, or German. Same thing for the universities. A basic knowledge is all that is important. But when looking for employment in Belgium (at a university level) it is extremely hard for anyone who has not gained fluency in at least three languages.</p>

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<p>“All in all, systems of education should not be measured at the top only, as the real problems and crisis have bigger impacts on the bottom quartiles. Some cynics like to say that our system does very well in delivering the small percentage of scientists and leaders, a very large percentage of Walmart workers and customers, and the still-so important masses of uneducated that fix our roofs, gardens, HVAC, if not our cars!” </p>

<p>Xiggy, maybe the cynics are right. Maybe the system delivers precisely what the society needs…</p>

<p>My father-in-law in retirement taught reading to impoverished youth in the LA area. He used to say, “I don’t need them to understand and analyze Shakespeare! I need them to understand and analyze the newspaper so they can best decide who to vote for.” The old liberal lion got very practical when faced with the enormity of poverty just a few miles away from his upper-middle-class neighborhood.</p>

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<p>^^</p>

<p>And I am supposed to be the elitist around here. :)</p>

<p>Humor set aside, I happen to believe that the richest nation on earth should strive to lift everyone’s boat. I am trying to reconcile the positions that criticize the early selection/tracking of students in certain countries in Europe and our mostly tacit acceptance of a high dropout rates in many urban areas in the US. </p>

<p>I also believe that we are right in insisting on finding ways to increase the number of our STEM graduates. On the other hand, I see fewer efforts to teach marketable skills to students who are not dreaming of attending HYPS. In the end, our egalitarian view that everyone should have the same academic opportunities seem to ignore that not everyone is able to capitalize on those opportunities, and this for a number of factors. </p>

<p>Being able to read the daily paper to help formulate an intelligent vote is laudable. However, I am thinking more along the lines of being a few steps above illiteracy. Thinking more about people being able to return the correct change of 12.65 on a twenty dollar bill, without having to grab a calculator. Thinking more about being able to write invoices for a garden maintenance or a roof repair. And, thinking more of gaining sufficient skills to help brige the gaps for the next generation, namely their own children.</p>

<p>As one of the greatest liberals said “To those whom much is given, much is expected.” I believe that much has been given to this country. When it comes to education, I am not so sure that it (and its leaders) has lived up to the expectations. </p>

<p>The price a country pays for being richest country on earth and, at times, the best.</p>

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<p>There wasn’t much homework in K or 1st. Really not much until about 4th grade or so…but our D came home, talked to me about her day, had a snack and did her homework. Then she went out to play. Same pattern all the way through high school. Some times it shifted a bit due to EC’s or volunteer obligations, but she knew that school was her “job”. And that included homework. We did not take her out for extra vacations, etc. I understand that this may not work for everyone, if you live at a distance from family and ther is an emergancy, you’ve got to go. But the details don’t really matter…the important point is that school/education was the priority. And she knew it.</p>

<p>I just think that education begins with parent support. To me, that includes making homework, attendance, etc the priority in the home. Sure, help out at the school/PTA, etc if you can, but just covering the basics would go a long way for all students.</p>

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<p>But xiggi, from figures I’ve seen here on CC, the percentage of high school students starting and finishing college has more than doubled since I graduated 3+ decades ago. That means a lot more boats are being lifted than ever before.</p>

<p>I do agree with you that we need more vocational training options in our public schools. Where I live, Home Ec and woodshop/mechanics are not required or even available any more, which is too bad, because those courses might offer some career-path inspiration for the non-college inclined students.</p>

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<p>In the case of Japan, test scores on their national college entrance exam is often the ONLY factor in not only determining whether one attends college…but also the applicant’s major within that college. </p>

<p>For instance, you need among highest test scores to gain admission to Tokyo University’s Department of Law(Really more similar to Poli-Sci here)…and their graduates tend to be the first ones snapped up by the most prestigious government agencies and corporate conglomerates. </p>

<p>It’s similar to other East Asian societies such as South Korea and both of the Chinas on either side of the Taiwan strait. </p>

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<p>Not only that, but in many Asian societies, where you went to university and its perceived ranking will determine which careers will be open/closed to you…even decades after graduation. That’s one major reason not only for them to value academic education, but also for the sometime obsession with college rankings. </p>

<p>For instance, up until the '00s, if you didn’t graduate from the University of Tokyo, many of the most prestigious government agencies and some departments within the corporate conglomerates won’t even give your candidacy a second glance. In some cases, you’d be precluded from applying altogether. Some of those agencies were more anal about it as departments like MITI/METI used to only accept UTokyo graduates who majored in the Law Department. Majored in other fields…forget it. According to some friends who work(ed) in those agencies, the fact they now will consider candidates from other academic majors and top universities like Kyoto, Keio, Waseda, etc was considered a major concession which caused some older veterans to grumble about “watering down of standards”. </p>

<p>Heard similar things about bring a Tsinghua/Peking University graduate in Mainland China or National Taiwan University in the ROC. Graduating from those places will open up career doors in both the public and private sector that are often closed or nowhere near as open without much struggle from other colleges. And this is even considering such systems track many students off the college track at the end of junior high and less than 50% of college applicants in the PRC got into any university as recently as 2007 and in the ROC, there’s still a 1/3 chance you won’t get into any college…much less an elite institution like NTU.</p>

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<p>I know Spain has “placement exams” to qualify for college & determine what you can major in. Of course because it is virtually free, they can do this.</p>

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<p>As requested: [Standardized</a> Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps](<a href=“http://lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm]Standardized”>Standardized Tests: The Interpretation of Racial and Ethnic Gaps) Given the data is a bit old, I think I’ve seen more recent studies which show the same trend but I couldn’t find them again.</p>

<p>If nothing else, I think this shows that race is something that should be controlled for when looking at education issues.</p>

<p>And not that we shouldn’t strive for better for everyone, but America’s education system is a lot better than the stats seem to imply at a first glance. Here is the PISA report for 2009: <a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (on page 14 you will see reading scores broken down by race). For convenience, I’ll tell you that Asian-Americans beat everyone except the city of Shanghai (which is about as useful a measure as measuring only the city of Cambridge, MA), White Americans beat everyone except Finland, South Korea, and a couple of lone cities which were measured. Hispanic-Americans (I believe this includes illegal immigrants - not sure though) beat every Latin American country which competed. Black Americans beat many countries around the world, including most of Latin America, the Middle East, and a few countries in Eastern Europe. No Sub-Saharan African countries participated in PISA, but Black Americans would have likely beat them had they. In 2009 the PISA only broke down scores by race for reading so I can’t compare science. </p>

<p>Controlling for poverty rate instead of race (on Page 15), America does very well still. In districts where the fewer than 10% of students receive free/reduced lunch, the scores are higher than anywhere except the city of Shanghai. In districts between 10-25%, America beats everyone except South Korea, Finland, and a cities. For 25-50%, about as well as the OCED average. </p>

<p>PISA has not released scores based on race or any measure of affluence based for Math or Science so I can’t compare those. </p>

<p>While Education in America may benefit from some changes, we’re not going to find those changes in other countries, except for maybe Finland.</p>

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<p>My son had a substantial amount of homework in both K and 1st grade.</p>

<p>We were supposed to read for 30-60 minutes every night and I was supposed to sign a sheet verifing that we’d done our reading. Then he had multiple worksheets - usually one in ‘reading’ - something like draw 5 items that start with “P” and another in math. Then he had a list of spelling words for a weekly spelling test that he was supposed to practice, even in kindergarten he took spelling tests. To do all the work would have taken nearly an hour every evening.</p>

<p>I worked full time and didn’t pick him up until after 5PM, then we ate dinner together. That left only a couple hours before he needed to get to bed. I wasn’t about to spend half that time making him do busy work over concepts I knew he already knew. Besides there was so much to teach my son without being limited by the worksheets the school sent home. </p>

<p>Also after a lot of years working with kids, my biggest concern was that making him spend so much time doing ‘busy’ work when he was that young would cause him to get ‘burned out’ on school at a very young age.</p>

<p>While I’m sure other parents just signed the sheet saying they’d done their reading every night whether or not they had, I was always honest. Some nights we read, other nights we had other activities that were a higher priority. I never made him do the silly worksheets that got send home. </p>

<p>I got letters from the teacher every week reminding me that he hadn’t done his homework. Then I started getting calls making me aware he was not turning in his homework. I said, “Obviously I know!” And explained that as soon as he started struggling with any of the concepts, that I would find a way to reinforce those skills.</p>

<p>When my son got to be in 3rd or 4th grade, then I started madating that he do his homework each and every night and that he take the time to do it neatly and correctly. </p>

<p>This year he graduated 5th in his class and will be attending school next year on a full tutition academic scholarship. Somehow I still don’t think the lack of priority on homework when he was 6 years old did any permanent damage.</p>

<p>Besides that gave us time to watch television shows like Zaboomafoo and talk about the animals, it gave us time to play board games, it gave us time to participate in sports - to learn team work, to learn to follow rules, to learn to take turns, it gave us time to go on hikes and discuss the trees and plants, it gave us time to do chores and learn responsibility… 12 years later and I still can’t imagine he would have been better served drawing pictures of things that start with letter “*” every night.</p>

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<p>I’ve been to Seoul. I’ve never been to Finland, but I’ve been to Sweden. I imagine Finland is similar - cold, dark, depressing, a bit boring. The people are nice but reserved and relatively humorless. I wouldn’t change places with a Fin or South Korean just to have my educational ranking bumped up a couple of notches.</p>

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<p>Does anyone have kids that attend a middle class or upper middle class public high school with a larger black population that is also middle class to upper middle class? If so, any personal experiences with how the black students do compared to the white students? Would you say that parental involvement is similar among all students and their families?</p>

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<p>I’d be interested to know if there would appear to be a crisis at all if we looked only at the top 75% of families in terms of family income. I know there’d still be plenty of complaints, but would you be able to show that there was a crisis, as compared with other countries? This could help us compare ourselves with, say, Finland. Here’s an excerpt from a report about a UN study:

You can talk about phonics, etc., all you want, but those numbers say a lot to me.</p>

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<p>Maybe I just woke up cranky today - but this really cheeses me off. There are good teachers and bad teachers, just as there are good and bad doctors and good and bad CEOs. For some reason, though, when it comes to judging teachers and teaching, we’re all experts - probably because our tax dollars pay for teachers and many of us have experienced both good and bad teaching. Whatever the reason, an arguement based on generalization and obvious disdain is not generally persuasive.</p>

<p>I would hazard a guess that many [fill in the blank] professions are also full of those who are “not intellectually equipped to rise above the level of mediocrity.” Don’t single out teachers for your condescension. Don’t extrapolate your opinion or your own bad experience to the profession as a whole.</p>

<p>Currently I’m trying to emulate garland’s husband - after 25 years in industry, I’ve almost completed my teaching certification. With luck, I’ll be a high school chemistry teacher soon. Pretty ironic for someone who was once a National Merit Scholar and a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of a well-respected university. Here’s hoping that I can break the mediocrity barrier.</p>

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<p>Yes, we can talk about phonics, and perhaps also about statistics. Take a look at the quoted statistics above:</p>

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<p>Does anyone remotely familiar with countries such as France and Mexico really BELIEVE tha the level of poverty of the US and Mexico is really 22 versus 26 percent, and that France is 70 percent lower than ours? Could this level of poverty be analyzed on a relative income per capita? </p>

<p>Does anyone who crosses from San Diego to Tijuana really thinks he will find just as many poor people on both sides? From El Paso to Ciudad Juarez? And, this not even considering that the border towns are some of the “wealthiest” in Mexico. Should we assume that a family of four who lives in an Infonavit house with an income of 600 dollars from TWO working parents is not poor. </p>

<p>The same can be said about visiting cities such as Marseilles in France, and plenty of suburbs that are mostly populated by several generations of immigrants. </p>

<p>It is all a matter of relativity. Fwiw, the French used to joke about the US poors. Poor who own multiple color TV sets, cell phones, and multiple cars per family. The French thought our poors should be careful not to gain a few more hundred dollars per year as they might jump into the French middle class!</p>

<p>Finally, regarding internation statistics on education, the US has shown a tremendous willingness to manipulate data (think government numbers on HS dropouts versus privately produced numbes) to provide excuses for lower performance. The NEA goons have their owb experts slicing and dicing to uncover even more ways to mask the failures of our system. </p>

<p>We have come up with all kind of excuses --mostly based on fabrication or ignorance. We pretend to be a poorer nation that suffers from a high level of immigration, and when convenient, from racial “differences” in … should we dare to say aptitude. The reality is that we have NO excuses to fail to educate our minorities. Our public system of education bargained for the right to educate EVERYONE in exchange of a publicly funded monoply. </p>

<p>Other countries, and not only in Asia and Finland, are doing MUCH better than we do, and with comparable pools of students. Countries that have adopted a competitive system of education where the role of the government as funder is separated from the provision of services are showing that better mousetraps do exist. </p>

<p>When it comes to designing an education system, we DO have plenty to learn from abroad; and not much the other way around. A good start would be to acknowledge our … mistakes. Something that appears to be so …un-American!</p>

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<p>Great! That is a step in the right direction. And as a teacher who comes with a superior preparation, would you not be interested to see the entire “class” rise by … eliminating the less competent, the abusive, and the profiteer? </p>

<p>It seems to me that the great and superbly dedicated teachers should be the first in line to decry systems of seniority over performance and systems that try so hard to protect the poor teachers, often despite evidence that is compelling. </p>

<p>The teachers did not create the current system; they were lulled into supporting its development. However, they can support changes. Over time, the sea of criticisms ought to disappear. Unfortunately, what the public at large sees is the abject circus displayed in Madison a while back, and parents see plenty of individual problems with their own family. </p>

<p>It is indeed easy to criticize, and probably unfair to many, but the basis for the criticisms if not a figment of the imagination of malcontents.</p>

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No, that just means that more students are going to college. What are they getting in exchange?

I would reverse the causality here: because they do this, it can be virtually free.

:rolleyes:

I found the source for your excerpt: [UN</a> report examines high levels of child poverty in the richest countries](<a href=“UN report examines high levels of child poverty in the richest countries - World Socialist Web Site”>UN report examines high levels of child poverty in the richest countries - World Socialist Web Site)</p>

<p>Taking a look at [the</a> actual report](<a href=“http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard1e.pdf]the”>http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard1e.pdf), the data is for “the percentage of children living in ‘relative’ poverty, defined as households with income below 50 per cent of the national median.”</p>

<p>I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance given that the national median income also differs dramatically across these countries. If we instead look at the ‘absolute’ child poverty* data (page 7 of the UNICEF report) the USA has a score of 13.9, compared to 83.1 in the Czech Republic or 90.6 in Hungary…both countries that equal or exceed US education performance.</p>

<ul>
<li> the percentage of children living in households with incomes below the US official poverty line converted into national currencies (with purchasing power parity exchange rates)</li>
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<p>I think the poorest kids are getting the worst educations. Is there data that suggests otherwise?</p>

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And your point is…?</p>

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<p>In the US or abroad? In the overall system of education, or only in the US version of public education? </p>

<p>I’d say that it is --unfortunately-- true in the PUBLIC system in the United States. Not necessarily true in other countries and not necessarily true in private and quasi private schools in the United States. </p>

<p>There are poor children who benefit from scholarships at private schools, including some of the most prestigious schools. There are students who attend religious schools based on church participation. This said, while being poor does not present an impossibility to get the best education, in OUR system it is a deterrent as soon as we look in general terms, as opposed to individuals. The biggest shame is that the entities that have demonstrated to educate the poor at a fraction of the cost of what is wasted on public education are facing uphill battles to avoid extinction. </p>

<p>It is hardly worth debating that a system such as Highland Park in Dallas is not comparable to an urban system in Detroit. I believe that most people interested in this issue can find videos and articles about how books are kept locked behind bars; not to mention the bars and metal detectors that are now common fodder at many schools. </p>

<p>That is in stark contrast to the new schools built in the suburban Shangri-Las of America. Athletic facilities that make professional teams envious! Schools that look like glorified country clubs. Parking lots that look like fancy car dealerships. </p>

<p>It is obviously easier for students who have the chance to have parents who can vote with their feet, and abandon the urban districts and move to the new suburbs where their tax dollars are building nice facilities and not fortresses.</p>

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And where are the better teachers, on average, likely to go? And within schools, who do the best teachers teach?</p>

<p>Unless people with money are motivated to change the system, it won’t change. And if people with money find that their kids are getting decent educations, and are going to college, they won’t have the motivation.</p>