Is this a life lesson or a moment to take action?

Parent Cafe
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<p>A couple of explanations because some folks asked questions along the way.</p>

<p>Classes are small (<20/class). Number of honors kids is much smaller subset.</p>

<p>It’s a half year course (equivalent).</p>

<p>There were some serious time commitments (project time) - many tens of hours down the drain. It’ll give them extra credit (assuring As). The last item was a very minor - in comparison - item. They didn’t do it.</p>

<p>I don’t think the teacher is anything but very human, like the rest of us. </p>

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<p>Hunt, I haven’t heard anyone saying teachers never do wrong; I’m a huge defender of teachers, but I’m on the students’ side on this one.</p>

<p>I have repeatedly heard people suggesting - on this thread and others - that teachers evidently make a routine habit of taking reprisals against students for even the most minor parental complaint (because clearly, if kid gets a B in the class, the only possible explanation can be that the teacher had it in for him). And I only wish that supervisors and principals were half as inclined to back up their teachers as many seem to assume. </p>

<p>For what it is worth, my time on CC has made me less likely to pursue high school teaching if academia doesn’t work out. I love teaching, but not if I’m going to be constantly disrespected and suspected rather than treated like a fellow adult professional by the parents of my students. </p>

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<p>I’m kind of surprised that the teacher didn’t just give the kids a zero for the project and have their grade reflect that.
My question would be if it had been any other part of the requirements would she have dropped a student or given them a zero for it?</p>

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<p>I didn’t mean for this to be an attack on teachers. Certainly there are all kinds, including ones that don’t communicate well. My kids have had teachers and I have had teachers who will look at a set of papers or tests that all have poor grades and say "hmm, nobody did well on this. Maybe I didn’t explain it as well as I could have"and throw out the results and start over. I always found that to be admirable, not because kids got As, but because a teacher cared about whether or not the kids mastered the material. </p>

<p>OP, it will be interesting to see what happens after the kids appeal the decision. </p>

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<p>Right around 8th grade I told all three of my kids that the calls to school from Mommy were done. I followed that up with a discussion around personal advocacy. If you want change, you have to act toward change. I would not call up the school and complain/question on my child’s behalf. I would however support and encourage them to advocate for themselves. To my thinking, if more than a few students are negatively impacted by a situation in school it’s well within their right to request an open discussion about it. Not go in and whine about the unfairness of it. Not demand anything. Just collect themselves as a group and request an open discussion about why or why not the situation was fair and/or appropriate. I applaud the kids that did that and think it’s a shame he didn’t participate. Yes, it might well have been his responsibility. Yes, he might well have screwed up. But as much as we as parents want our kids to learn their life lessons, and hold their hands to the fire when consequences are doled out, I feel like there’s just as much learning to be done from their coming forward when they feel like things could have been handled differently on both ends. </p>

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<p>@MichiganGeorgia, good point. If the project was so minor, why not just take a zero? This is what would happen in any other class if an assigment is missing. </p>

<p>Did the kids jump the gun by dropping the honors designation? </p>

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<p>I’m with those who say if it’s on the syllabus, the onus is on the student and to some extent…possibly parents of first year HS students to read and abide by it. That was the expectation at my urban public magnet HS and there was little/no slack given for students who turned in late work. Assuming late work is expected, there’s substantial deductions of up to 1 full letter grade PER DAY depending on teacher. </p>

<p>It was great preparation for college and professional life. </p>

<p>What’s more interesting was to find my undergrad college was much more lax about this as the campus culture was such Professors do tend to give endless extensions or second chances for some of the most flimsy excuses as illustrated by two notorious classmates I had for several classes who successfully got those extensions/second chances despite goofing off and slacking off till the very end. </p>

<p>It was a factor in how some had a hard time adjusting to post-college life in the workplace…especially those in industries*/firm cultures where punctuality is expected and showing a repeated pattern of being late or missing deadlines, even ones only communicated once months ago meant one wasn’t likely to make it to the end of the six month probationary period. </p>

<p>It was a key factor in why one college classmate didn’t survive his probationary period in the insurance industry not too long after graduation. </p>

<ul>
<li>Banking/finance where the culture was one is expected to arrive and be at their desk by the 9 am start time at the very latest.<br></li>
</ul>

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<p>At my undergraduate college, this collaboration would be considered a direct violation of the college’s honor code unless group collaboration is explicitly approved by the professor in writing. </p>

<p>Moreover, one can be in violation not only for participating, but also for merely knowing about it and not notifying the college authorities in a timely manner. Hence, roommates or college classmates who don’t participate, but knew about this snapchat collaboration could also be found to be in violation if they don’t notify college authorities in a timely manner. </p>

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<p>Calla1, the kids didn’t drop the designation. They had no choice. The teacher dropped it.</p>

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<p>Why didn’t the kids do this assignment? What is their explanation for why they didn’t do it? I think that’s an important element. It makes a big difference (in my mind, anyway) if they thought it wasn’t required vs. they just forgot about it.</p>

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<p>Also, pedagogically, if there was a big project at the end it would make sense to scaffold it…that is, have the kids turn in an idea/outline whatever, and then do a draft, and then have the final project.<br>
It is easy for us as parents to look back and say “you should have done it”, but if working from a syllabus with no additional mention of the project was something they had never done before then it may be too much to expect.
The mentioning something once at the beginning of the class and expecting it at the end is more graduate level thinking.</p>

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<p>For me, there are two problems here. One is the issue of proportionality. I mean, someone could also use the argument “well, you broke the rule/were irresponsible/made a mistake, so the consequences are on your head” to justify executing people who made a sloppy reporting error on their taxes, but I think most of us would pretty strongly dissent from that line of reasoning. Docking a kid for lateness is one thing (and something I firmly believe in in most cases); denying honors credit to someone who has otherwise been doing the work of an honors course seems an overreaction. </p>

<p>The other issue is that to be a genuine learning experience, the “lesson” needs to be something with actual real world applicability. When I deduct points for late papers, I do so in part because it isn’t doing a student any favors not to teach him or her that missing a deadline has consequences. I really don’t think, however, that there are a lot of real world equivalents to the scenario described by the OP. First of all, it is pretty typical, even in the adult world, to give and get reminders of impending deadlines rather than relying on a months in advance notification. But even in cases where one does have to monitor due dates more closely, the dynamic is usually very different than the one described here.</p>

<p>For instance, keeping track of deadlines for conference proposals - many of which are posted well in advance of the due date - is important for my professional development, but then, I could have no reasonable expectation, in that case, that anyone would remind me in the interim; it is understood by everyone that if you want to apply, you keep track of the dates for the main conferences in your field and get your abstracts in (although even there,while you won’t get a personal reminder, conference organizers will often repost the call for papers on relevant, field-specific websites a couple of times before the deadline). In this case, however, the ordinary and natural expectation would be that a teacher who you see at least several times a week would, as a matter of course, at least refer to an upcoming assignment at some point between the distribution of the syllabus in September and a December or January due date - in fact, if it is a big enough assignment to warrant these kinds of consequences, I’d say you’re a pretty lousy high school teacher if you haven’t said a peep in preparation. There’s often no need to review a syllabus, because the ongoing relationship you have with the teacher trumps a preliminary schedule that may well be modified as the semester progresses.</p>

<p>Frankly, if OP’s question had been “There is a project mentioned on the syllabus, but S’s teacher hasn’t said anything about it - should he remind her, or leave well enough alone?” while I would have advised S to double-check with the teacher, my assumption would have been that the teacher had changed her plans since the beginning of the semester, not that she was trying to trick students into forgetting about a key course requirement by maintaining an inexplicable silence about her expectations for the assignment. </p>

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<p>I honestly think the teacher forgot about it as well. Then when she consulted the syllabus at the end of the term to figure out what she was giving honors students credit for, she saw it. Like I said earlier, even in grad school there was some reference made, even if in passing, of an assignment that was coming due.</p>

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<p>Then the issue has been resolved for your son, as it should be. </p>

<p>As I mentioned before, the onus really is on the students to protest or negotiate, not the parents.</p>

<p>And it seems like your son has come to his own conclusions – one which will probably be worth more to him in life than the honors credit. He may not have an “H” by the course on his transcript, but it seems to me he understands the meaning of the word “honor” – he messed up, and he is able to recognize and accept the consequences of his mistake with looking for ways to blame others. And also seems to understand, inherently, that “everyone else also screwed up” isn’t really an excuse for anything in life. </p>

<p>What if the facts were different? What if there were 6 kids in honors, and 5 didn’t do the assignment, and one student did? What would the rationale then be? Supposed it was 4 kids who did the assignment, and 2 who forgot because the teacher didn’t mention it? At what point does the balance shift from teacher to student?</p>

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<p>I’m not too sure about this being “graduate-level thinking” considering this expectation was widespread among many teachers at my public magnet HS and some workplaces I’ve worked at where such expectations were demanded of entry-level employees fresh out of college with a bachelor’s. </p>

<p>Granted, my HS teachers and supervisors at such workplaces had little patience or tolerance for students/employees who failed to meet such expectations and in their words “expected to be spoonfed” rather than be proactive in self-management…including keeping track of all deadlines. In HS, students who failed to meet such expectations could expect a scolding and a lowered grade/negative conduct comment on report card. At those workplaces, this almost always resulted in the entry-level employee failing to complete his/her probationary period. </p>

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<p>Just a question and I could’ve missed it but how exactly do you know that every single student didn’t do the assignment? Something just seems off about that. I can’t imagine that no one would’ve brought it up.</p>

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<p>@Cobrat: I work in industry and we have status meetings from time to time. We are not just assigned a project and then nobody says anything for 5 months until it is due. Spoonfed would be telling you all the internal deadlines, but basic project management says you check on progress from time to time.</p>

<p>I personally think the OP should say something to the administration so they know. I think your gut is telling you that something is not right here. </p>

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If any of the students had done the assignment, then it would much clearer that those who didn’t do it just forgot to do so. The fact that none of the students did the assignment at least suggests that they may have thought they didn’t have to do it. I still haven’t heard what the students say about that.</p>