<p>Well, I could elaborate this topic to not just the SAT II math lc but also apply it to our classes in school. I know some kids would store stuff in their calculators for like science tests. So it's considered cheating if you put in formulas but it's not if you use programs?</p>
<p>Ok, here's my opinion: it's cheating, but whether it's breaking the rules is debatable, and frankly, it doesn't really matter (and you won't get caught).</p>
<p>To support that it's cheating, imagine the following situation - the person next to you brought a couple pages full of formulas, and every other problem you see him using them to figure out his answers. Would you call that cheating? I'm pretty sure that kid would get kicked out of the testing center pretty quickly!</p>
<p>However, you are indeed allowed to bring a graphing calculator. This is fact. Are you allowed to put formulas and programs in the calculator? There's no rule that directly addresses this (not that I'm aware of)... The closest thing would be the rule that says that you're not allowed to have anything that would give you "an unfair advantage" over the others. Would this include calculator programs? That's where it's debatable... Since everybody is allowed access to a calculator, it's not necessarily an "unfair advantage," since everybody had the opportunity to put a program in his calculator.</p>
<p>The bottom line, does it matter? I'm pretty sure the general consensus is "no," mainly since the proctors don't even care if you're using a program. Does that fact offend those of you who have "academic integrity" and choose not to use a program? If yes, then really, that's your problem, since you have just as much of an opportunity to put programs in your calculator as others, and it's not directly breaking the SAT rules.</p>
<p>By the way, if my post makes it seem like I'm promoting this activity, no, I'm not necessarily for or against it. I took the test without programs, and for the most part without a calculator (I only used my calculator on two problems), so I really don't think they're necessary, but if you do, hey, I'm not here to stop you.</p>
<p>It's not cheating. The proctors are supposed to come around and check the calculators, but they don't mess around with the calculators to get to the applications and what not (I don't even think they would know how to on all calculators). They tell you that you aren't supposed to have any programs/information on there that isn't pertaining to the Math section (So no games, stories, etc.).</p>
<p>People put formulas in there not because they can't memorize them but because it saves you a LOT of time. I do this with things like the quadratic equation or coordinate distances (Create little programs for these so that I can just input a couple number and instantly find out the roots and what not).</p>
<p>It is not cheating. In my school everyone has one program or another</p>
<p>Are you guys reading what you're saying here at all?</p>
<p>
It's not cheating. The proctors are supposed to come around and check the calculators, but they don't mess around with the calculators to get to the applications and what not (I don't even think they would know how to on all calculators).
</p>
<p>So speeding isn't illegal because most of the time you don't get caught?</p>
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It is not cheating. In my school everyone has one program or another
</p>
<p>Ah good - I was worried that smoking pot was illegal, but since everyone at my school does it, I suppose it's OK.</p>
<p>Both of these reasons are really weak, but overall encapsulate the vast majority of the ones given here.</p>
<p>As rs8389 said, it IS cheating. I'm not saying you're going to get caught doing it - for example, on my calculator I have a program which computes the zeros of functions and solves linear systems; I didn't use it, but it was there from school and since it's hard to find I wasn't going to bother deleting it - but it's still wrong to do.</p>
<p>Does it matter? Open to debate. I'm inclined to say that any kind of cheating, no matter how small, matters. Especially so when you consider how slippery the slope of the "but it's only a LITTLE BIT of cheating" argument is. The fact that "everyone can do it", because everyone has a graphing calculator, does NOT legitimize it.</p>
<p>But at the end of the day, you're welcome to do it. If you fall back on looking at formulas you brought with you though, you'll just have to live with the fact that you didn't test fairly, and that your score may not be as legitimate as someone's who did.</p>
<p>Bold statement 42, it seems everyone has provided weak reasons, yet you have yet to provide any reasons at all. Care to challenge mine? I doubt someone who did not use formulas is virtuous and legitimate and smarter and everything (I didn't use any formulas, btw, so pat me on the back). </p>
<p>It's just that some people get so damn uptight about their SAT perfection crap that they'll get *<strong><em>ed when someone doesn't dot their i or cross their t in an essay, or use a formula in a calculator for math. They'll probably get *</em></strong>ed and tell the proctor when someone underlines a sentence in a CR passage. </p>
<p>(rant now over)</p>
<p>Look, then why would people want a TI-89, if the programs are going to get deleted anyway when you clear it...</p>
<p>They don't check the calculators. Think about it 42, do you really think the proctors are going to go around checking each calculator - I think not!</p>
<p>By the way 42, don't trash other people's ideas, just post your own.</p>
<p>Um.... You do realize that people want a TI-89 for the sole purpose that it can do so many more things without programs than an 83 can, right?</p>
<p>The point 1of42 made (which was what I was trying to say too) is that it most definitely is cheating, but you won't get caught for it. And naidu, fact is, the points you and Azure made really are pretty weak. If you're going to say it's not cheating, it's usually better if you give evidence about how it's not rather than that everybody does it, or that you won't get caught.</p>
<p>[EDIT]
Oh, and Karl Marks... Your point is that somebody who doesn't use formulas isn't any smarter than sombody who does? Well, that really does seem pretty off-topic, since that has absolutely nothing to do with cheating... But anyway, yes, you're right, somebody who doesn't cheat isn't necessarily smarter than somebody who does. That should be fairly obvious, since I mean, it's the same thing at school.... There are smart people who do cheat, ones that don't; there are dumb people who do cheat, ones that don't.... Intellect has absolutely nothing to do with cheating.... Duh?</p>
<p>If you want some evidence that it's cheating, look at my above post... Putting formulas in your calculator is the equivalent of writing down formulas on a sheet of paper...</p>
<p>I don't think its cheating.
You say that programs gives an unfair advantage for those who use them.
Still, the fact remains that, since many different calculator models are allowed, each students will have a different set of things the calculator does on its own. Therefore, tests should, and probably are, thought so no amount of programming can mean automatically getting things right. You do save time, but in order to do so you must understand how the programs, and there fore the forumulas in them, work.</p>
<p>Guys, honestly. It doesn't matter.</p>
<p>Listen, like rs8389 said, Math IIC is a REASONING test. having a calculator with awesome programs that can calculate how long it takes to tie your shoe aren't going to help you. If you really need a formula to solve a problem, they give it to you at the beginning of the test.</p>
<p>However, I do agree with 1of42, that having programs IS cheating. you won't get caught, just like speeding most of the time, but no doubt that you ARE cheating. TI-89 and TI-92 do have programs, which College Board has made legal (seeing as how they allow those graphers). To all of the people w/ a TI-83 who feel cheated, go ahead, buy a TI-89, and put all the formulas on the 83 that are on the 89. Then, leave the 89 to rot in your closet.</p>
<p>Seriously guys, quit stressing over a couple formulas. The entire Math IIC test is a joke, and really isn't something that should be worried about.</p>
<p>Go ahead, put formulas in your calculator. If you don't know what you're doing on a couple problems, all you're going to do is screw yourself over by wasting your time looking for the formula that 1-step solves the problem.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p><em>pat</em> There, happy? ;)</p>
<p>Sorry if I come across a bit harshly, but the 2 posts before mine were a little brainless and I was taken aback.</p>
<p>My reasoning as to why it's cheating is that if you were to say "having programs isn't cheating", I bet you I could load up so many programs that you would almost certainly back off of that statement. For example: you're asked to find the shortest distance between two different vector lines. This is clearly the kind of thing that you should be able to do on your own - but I could easily program something for a graphing calculator that would do it for you. Cheating?</p>
<p>How about if I were to ask you, given 3 planes, to find (if it exists) a point of intersection of the 3 planes, and if not, to give a geometric interpretation of the kind of intersection? I could write a program for that too, and I would certainly call it cheating.</p>
<p>Now, I'm not even sure if the above 2 things would be on a Math II SAT, but the point stands. It's especially poingant in a MC test like the SAT, where you don't have to show any work, and thus programs CAN in fact do the test for you.</p>
<p>I'm a little rushed to think of a number of examples right now, but the point I'm trying to make is this:</p>
<p>Having extra programs is cheating. Most of the time, it's so unhelpful overall that it fails to have any significant effect upon the test whatsoever. However, that doesn't change the fact that it IS cheating.</p>
<p>No, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things very much, and no, you probably won't get caught, but that doesn't make it legitimate, and it doesn't make it right.</p>
<p>So what do I think about doing it? I wouldn't, because I'm confident enough about my abilities to take the test on my own. Would I look down on someone who did? Honestly, yes. A little bit. But would I freak out and go berserk? No.</p>
<p>This thread has been reduced to some pointless argument. The OP asked if adding progrmas to your claculator was cheating. Since the Collegeboard's calculator policy is slightly vague, deciding wether or not it's cheating is pretty much up to you. I wouldn't feel right if I added programs to my calculator, but if you don't care, that's good for you! Add programs to your calculator!! You won't get caught, so just do whatever you want to do!! Actually, this isn't even an argument anymore, it's basically a violent clash of contradicting opinions and moral standards.</p>
<p>Do whatever you feel right with. Honestly, this debate could go for the next year. You think adding programs to your calculator is right, good for you! You think it's bad, good for you!! Is there really a point in proving that your opinion is right to people who believe that their opinion's are right?</p>
<p>Thanks for ending it rockermcr.:) I think you are right, its only one's opinion - so to the original poster -> do what you want!</p>
<p>I'm not trying to sway whether or not you believe it is cheating; however, from what I can tell, collegeboard's take is that it is not cheating:
For AP exams:
"Calculator memories will not be cleared. Students are allowed to bring to the exam calculators containing whatever programs they want.</p>
<p>Students must not use calculator memories to take test materials out of the room. Students that attempt to remove test materials from the room by any method will have their exam grades invalidated." (<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/calculus_bc/calc.html?calcbc%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/calculus_bc/calc.html?calcbc</a>)</p>
<p>For the SAT (<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/testday/calc.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/sat/testday/calc.html</a>) they don't say whether or not they should clear it, but their concerns seem more to prevent the sharing of answers and the removal of questions from the testing site.</p>
<p>So while it is not explicitly said, I think we can assume that their standards are similar for similar reasons.</p>
<p>-Aaron</p>
<p>AP and SAT are very different. AP is much harder, so it seems necessary to allow students to use calculator programs. I wouldn't think it was the same with the SAT math tests since they are much easier, and I'm sure that the collegeboard expects you to at least know some of the formulas. Either way, for the SAT math test, it doesn't really matter. Good luck to everyone!!</p>
<p>This is why the IBO is prohibiting calculator use on the Math paper 1s starting in 2007. They've been concerned about the unfair advantage that all the calculator technology and knowledge gives students with more resources. </p>
<p>College Board really should do that. Technically you CAN take the SAT 1 without a calculator, or with a 4 function calculator, but it would be a lot harder. I think it's definitely much easier with the graphing - and I don't have programs because we don't use them in my math class and I'm not about to research how to put them in or whatever. But my friend didn't have a calculator on the day of PSATs junior year (even though she was taking it in a math room and there were like a million calculators but the teacher would let her have one) and her score suffered as a result. Maybe for someone who really just "gets" math, the kind of people who can just look at a problem and instantly solve it, maybe for those people it doesn't matter. But for the average student, just the graphing calc even without programs is going to make it easier than a 4 function or no calculator. </p>
<p>As far as SAT IIs, some calculator prgrams might help but it might just waste time. TI 89s are generally faster I think (I don't think they're allowed on IB tests...not sure). But anyway the problem is while I do think it's cheating, people are going to do it unless they check. If they really don't want unfair advantages then I do feel it is College Board's responsibility to really make it so there aren't unfair advantages. Of course that doesn't make it right to cheat IMO, because you don't get caught, but it is reality that people will take advantage of it.</p>
<p>"TI 89s are generally faster I think (I don't think they're allowed on IB tests...not sure)"</p>
<p>They're not.</p>
<p>I agree. They should just ban calculators on the SATs, it will help distinguish those who actually know the math from those who know how to use their calculators to do the math.</p>
<p>Is using the programs that are pre-installed on the TI-89 considered cheating? These programs are removable, and are not part of the TI-89's default settings (a hard reset will delete most of the programs a TI-89 includes out of the box).</p>
<p>These programs are arguably far more helpful than most of the ones people have described as making. Is use of these considered cheating?</p>
<p>Would making your own program be considered cheating more than using one professionally made? Is there a quality about these programs that makes their use <em>not</em> cheating?</p>
<p>Just food for thought.</p>
<p>I think it's sort of cheating. But I wouldn't mind doing it though (sdon't get me wrong; I hate cheating)</p>
<p>Generally the people I know who can create calculator programs do pretty well on the SAT II math without much aid. I mean...there are people who get their 800s without using any programs. </p>
<p>Since the SAT considers TI 83s "approved" calculators, then I would say that using anything they come with wouldn't be cheating. Otherwise College Board shouldn't approve them.</p>
<p>Did they ever used to reset calcs? Maybe a lot of people complained about using their programs. Even though programs aren't specified, things that give an "unfair advantage" are and I think programs would be classed as such, meaning that if you were to be caught and reported it probably would be an issue. Of course most of the proctors seem to sit at the back of the room on the computer or something, although I did have one that walked around at random times.</p>