Is this fraud?

Paying for College
21

<p>^But he didn’t say that. Current in-state tuition and fees are going to be close enough, particularly when you’re talking about ½ of those amounts, and they’re easily verifiable. He would know straight out whether he was being over-charged. His chief complaint seems to be that he wasn’t involved in the financial aid process last year, and therefore didn’t have to pay until this year.</p>

<p>^^And even if his ex’s in-laws paid her share, that doesn’t relieve him of his obligation to pay his share. Where or how his ex got the money for her share is irrelevant.</p>

<p>The OP’s “concerns” do not sit well with me.</p>

<p>stacyc6, you’re writing under the guise of looking after your daughter’s best interests. You’re worried your daughter’s being “hobbled” by your former wife’s “over-protective” attitude, while your former wife puts her through college and takes care of all the other associated details. You’re worried your daughter could “lose credits, go to jail, or be charged with fraud” unless you interject yourself and protect her from her mother’s wrong-thinking, poor parenting, and inappropriate choices that don’t happen to align with yours.</p>

<p>I would suggest avoiding the melodramatic, paying your court-ordered half of your daughter’s in-state tuition and fees; and thinking only of your daughter’s best interest. (Hint: playing up drama where it may not exist; fighting with her mom over something you’re legally obligated to pay; involving Jane in the dispute as though it were her “conspiracy;” and tricking yourself into believing that you’re “protecting” her from all of her mother’s horrible weaknesses is probably NOT in Jane’s best interest.)</p>

<p>Was the FA package you’ve seen written for her upcoming sophomore year or for her past freshman year?</p>

<p>As m2ck explained, your plan could really complicate Jane’s future opportunities at this school. Why try to interject yourself into this scenario?</p>

<p>Is your ex-wife doing her part in the college process? Paying her share? Caring for your daughter? Taking care of all the other details?</p>

<p>Are you involved in Jane’s life? Do you see her? Talk to her? Spend time with her?</p>

<p>If not, or if you have been inappropriately hostile, or scary, or not-forthcoming with court-ordered funds, or overly litigious, or melodramatic to the point of repeatedly making mountains out of molehills and dragging Sue into court (or police stations), I can kind of see why Jane (or Sue) may have made a legitimate case with the financial aid office for not being able to squeeze another penny out of you without undue conflict.</p>

<p>Sue and Jane seem to have a leg to stand on, after all – you’re admittedly not forthcoming with the funds that you owe!</p>

<p>I can think of a few different, legitimate scenarios that could have warranted a lack of your involvement in Jane’s freshman year’s financial aid.</p>

<p>You are clearly aware of your obligation here. It’s a simple, common sense, legal (and ethical?) obligation: you must pay for one half of your own daughter’s college education at one of the cheapest rates possible, those of her in-state school.</p>

<p>This is VERY simple. You owe a small amount compared to what so many parents have to pay. It sounds like you’re not being asked to pay any portion of Jane’s room and board. Room and board often approximate tuition and fees! You’re getting off kind of easy (unless this additional cost was intentionally offset in other ways in the decree.)</p>

<p>This will all be over for you, and Jane, quickly, if you’ll just do the right thing and pay your legal obligation. Put Jane first. Leave your former wife out of it. No need for any further “advice.” It’s really very simple.</p>

22

<p>I am clueless on this one. I do not work at a Profile school, but I would say that a mother who gets a waiver of the NCP info at a school that requires the NCP has to have been less than truthful in order to get the waiver. This is a can of worms I do not care to open.</p>

23

<p>*^^And even if his ex’s in-laws paid her share, that doesn’t relieve him of his obligation to pay his share. Where or how his ex got the money for her share is irrelevant.
*</p>

<p>Oh I agree. - it doesn’t matter who/how the wife’s half is being paid. I was just trying to figure out what is going on “under the surface” with the OP’s emotions. </p>

<p>That said, because of the “Dave Ramsey” comments, I think the REAL problem is that the OP remarried, had more kids, and now resents that he’s being made to pay an amount that was in his divorce decree. Frankly, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those situations. In truth, I have NO sympathy for those who remarry, have more kids, and then don’t want to pay for the kid(s) from the first marriage because it’s taking money from his “new family” and possibly annoying the “new wife.” People shouldn’t remarry and/or have more kids in a second marriage if it means that the kids from the first family aren’t going to get what is court ordered or what is morally/ethically needed for their support.</p>

<p>Frankly, I think the ex “did the math” and realized that without the NCP waiver, the “family contribution” would come in too high to have the OP’s share cover half. So, she got the waiver (probably dishonestly), so that the family contribution would be an amount that when split was in line with the divorce decree.</p>

<p>The OP does have a point that the ex should not have waited til NOW to tell him what he owes, since the ex has known for a YEAR. Imagine if she had waited til after all 4 years of college, and then presented him with a bill (especially after leading him to believe that the D had a full ride scholarship). </p>

<p>That said, I think part of the problem is that the communication seems to travel “thru the child”…that is never a good thing. Kids often get money facts WRONG. This stuff could be handled by email (so there is a record) between the ex’s. He could have asked last year, “how much is the family contribution”? So, he’d know how much to pay (up to the amount of the divorce decree". I would imagine that in their divorce decree, the wife is obligated to share “education issues/records” with the OP, so the ex should have provided a copy of the FA package to the OP (especially if the D was under 18 when it was rec’d).</p>

<p>I don’t think he’s obligated to pay for the ex’s share if the total family contribution comes in at an amount equal or less than “half tuition/fees”…so he does need to see exactly what the FA package included. His decree probably says something like …up to half of tuition/fees of a state school. </p>

<p>I’m also wondering if because the D got her tuition paid for with aid/scholarship, the OP thinks he’s off the hook.</p>

24

<p>OP here. Gosh people sure do want to psychoanalyze me a lot.</p>

<p>Here is my primary concern: If I participate in what turns out to be fraud, as defined by the school and the government, who will be liable for the penalties? Do schools hold the student ultimately responsible, or the parents?</p>

<p>My ex just last night sent me an email saying “I’m attempting to get more aid based on special circumstances, so if we just go on my income, D should get a better package.” I think maybe she doesn’t realize that I have already submitted the NC Parent Profile form, even though I told her I had done that.</p>

<p>Any replies that focus on me wanting or not wanting to pay a certain amount are irrelevant. I am already aware of what I owe and am willing to do so. I just don’t want my payment to constitute a criminal action that will harm my daughter’s future chances in college. I asked here, because I read that once a FA counselor becomes aware of fraud, he/she is obliged to report it. So I wanted to get an answer before I said anything to D’s FA counselor.</p>

<p>So, if you were an FA counselor at a private school that required both parents’ income info, and you found out that the custodial parent had been hiding the NC parent’s income, what would you do?</p>

25

<p>I’m not a FA counselor, but I would say this is getting into fraud, especially if mom, in her NCP Waiver efforts, also did not include child support as additional funds. Then, she is hiding money as well as lying about the OP’s involvement. After all, she can’t claim to be receiving support, and then say you aren’t in the picture, they don’t know where you are, haven’t had contact, etc, which is the only way to get a waiver. OP, I would think, if you could show that this first year you were not told of any of this until now, you would not be held liable…but I think you are doing the right thing to check. Why couldn’t you contact the FA counselor anonymously and ask (using a phone number that can’t show up as you on caller ID of course? I am sure they would understand why you were doing so. Then, in the same conversation, depending on what you are told, you could reveal your identity, or not.</p>

26

<p>OP, I suggest you think long and hard. It seems to me that you are tying to nail X for fraud? If that is true, and it is worth whatever happens to the child, and your relationship with child, go for it. I asked if you were current on CS. You did not answer. That may be part of part of any waiver. I suspect there is another side to this.</p>

27

<p>stacyc6 -</p>

<p>In my (granted rather limited) observation, messed up finances at colleges don’t land in a fraud department. They land in the Bursar’s Office. In which case, someone is likely to be sent a bill for the over-paid need-based financial aid, and your daughter’s academic transcripts are likely to be held up until the account is settled. If it isn’t sorted out by the fall term, she might not be able to re-enroll. The Bursars don’t care if the money for the bills comes from Mom, Dad, or Santa Claus. They just expect the bills to be paid.</p>

28

<p>Taking the OP at his word, I actually think that the OP is asking a very good question. </p>

<p>1) It seems likely that he’s uncovered financial aid fraud by his ex.
2) He doesn’t want any part of the fraud.
3) He doesn’t want his daughter to be any part of the fraud. </p>

<p>It seems as if (3) might already be the case. He’s concerned that if he pays simply half of the loan amount directly to his ex (as opposed to half of the bill from the bursar up to the amount he’s obligated to), that he might be viewed has being party to the fraud. I think that’s a fair question. He might be right. I think the OP needs to seek competent legal advice and not use advice on a chat group any more than to discover good questions to ask the lawyer. </p>

<p>For next year, he’s filled out the PROFILE, told his ex and told his D. Presumably next year’s financial award will be less. It is likely to be the case that his D can’t attend the private college because his ex can’t afford the balance since the OP will only contribute half the cost of a state school, yet will be expected to make a larger contribution by the college. This is unfortunate. This would force Jane to transfer to a state school. </p>

<p>It could even be worse if the private school decides to pursue the financial aid fraud and doesn’t release the transcript because it takes the position that Jane still owes them money since the financial aid for the current year was obtained under false pretense. </p>

<p>So what is the OP to do? Talk to an attorney, describe to him the outcome that he wants, and let him decide what is the best way to proceed. </p>

<p>I think the filing of the PROFILE has already set some wheels in motion. I don’t see what alternative he had though.</p>

29

<p>The OP has filed the non-custodial Profile for the upcoming school year. I say…the COLLEGE will see that he didn’t do so in the past. The waiver was granted for last year. If there is any impropriety, the SCHOOL will make this determination.</p>

<p>The OP was NOT part of any fraud (if indeed he never was notified about the need to fill out a non-custodial waiver). </p>

<p>And believe it or not…folks DO make mistakes. The college will determine in some way if there was willful deceit…or if it was just an error on the part of the mom. If there is willful deceit, I would think they might want money paid to them that was wrongfully disbursed.</p>

<p>There are many reasons for granting a NCP waiver. Not paying child support, lack of contact, abuse/neglect of the child, not responding to multiple efforts to make contact with the NCP. We don’t KNOW if any of the above apply to the OP…but they might…or might not. And this is private business anyway…not for a message board, IMHO.</p>

<p>OP, pay the parent what YOU are supposed to pay.</p>

30

<p>It may not necessarily be fraud. Depending on the family situation Stacy’s ex can get a NCP waiver even if the parent is paying child support. This can especially happen if there has been documented abuse (physical, mental or emotional) to either the child or the ex spouse. Also the school can excercise professional judgement based on what the Op’s daughter’s situation is. Just based on some of Stacy’s post, he does come off to be very hostile toward his ex wife. If others can also document his behavior for her, a school can grant a NCP waiver because they do not want to inflict any undue stress on the family.</p>

<p>There are so many things that we really do no know about Op’s situation other than the fact that he is supporting 5 children. He does come off to be upset because his ex seems to be sending the child to school and at the same time, not being dependent to get it done.</p>

<p>It seems that OP is harping on his court order that he only has to pay 1/2 of SUNY tuition. Guess what? Colleges and financial aid departments don’t care about what the court order states. Stacy will get an EFC based his income + his wife’s income. If the school removes the NCP dad gets an increased EFC, it doesn’t matter what his court ordered support agreement states as it will be the school not Stacy will determine what he can pay. Like Happymom stated, if Stacy does not pay, the only person hurt in this situation is going to be Jane because she is going to be the one who will nto be able to attend school.</p>

<p>Stacy, you need to love Jane more than you hate Sue!!</p>

31

<p>He said he’d pay what he owes. That’s not his question. </p>

<p>The concern the OP stated, if I understand correctly, is that IF IT IS FRAUD, how does he go about meeting his obligation without simultaneously being a party to the fraud, and thus subject to criminal and civil penalties? That’s a perfectly legitimate question, and no ulterior motive need apply. </p>

<p>With respect to 2010-2011, I don’t know how to answer that with 100% certainty. It’s a legal question that should be answered by a lawyer. Thumper is likely correct, but the OP needs to consult his own counsel. </p>

<p>With respect to 2011-2012, he’s filed the proper paperwork and he should be fine in terms of fraud. </p>

<p>In terms of personal stuff, clearly Jane will be hurt because the OP won’t pay more than half the cost of the state school. She should have been hurt by him last year. Clearly Jane will end up in the state school eventually and may blame her father, a perfectly reasonable response. </p>

<p>However, in an attempt to allow Jane to attend the private college, Sue may have committed fraud. Jane may have been a willing participant. Neither would have seen the need to do that if OP was willing to pay half the costs. He says he can’t because he’s taken on many additional obligations. So be it. If Sue and/or Jane committed fraud, they shouldn’t have. Regardless, the OP cannot allow himself to be a part of the fraud. </p>

<p>None of the personal stuff seems to be relevant to the OPs primary concern, which was a perfectly legitimate question.</p>

32

<p>Stacy will not get an EFC as that is a term for FAFSA only and he does not need to fill FAFSA forms now or ever unless he becomes custodial parent of Jane… Where the issue will arise is whether he should have completed the PROFILE form for 2009 . That he did not does not seem to be anything of his doing. Thumper is absolutely correct when she says that when the 2010 form appears after the absence of one for 2009, the college may question it, and that is up to the college. Frankly, if I were the college financial aid officer, I would question it, given the limited funds colleges have to give. If Jane, indeed had a certain amount coming to her for college, that was not reported, it would be an issue to me as the FA officer of a college. However, it appears as though NO payment was made by the OP in 2009 and Sue may not have felt hopeful of getting dime 1 from the OP. Now she is collecting on the terms of the decree, and when that happens, the PROFILE has to be completed by the OP for Jane to get dime one from the college. The moment Dad pays what he is supposed to pay according to the decree, that amount has to be reported for FAFSA as well as PROFILE purposes. </p>

<p>Also to be completely correct, Dad can refuse to complete PROFILE. There is no law that forces him to do so. What he is on the hook for legally is the 1/2 of state school tuition. Period. Unless the decree has him down for more. And which state school could also be in contention. </p>

<p>I’ve seen situations like this many times, and it is not always the Dad who is to blame. As far as I am concerned, the Dad should fill out the PROFILE and pay up the 1/2 state tuition (which is legally required in most states) or pay a lawyer and find out what he truly has to pay which may end up costing nearly as much if not more and generate a lot of ill will. He should insist on being included on the billing and getting the grades from the college so that he can see that he is paying for a legitimate cause. He should also stay on top of what each year’s tuition and fees are for the state university that is serving as the cost marker so he knows what he needs to pay each year. He needs to read that portion of the divorce decree very carefully.</p>

<p>The OP has committed no fraud since he is under no obligation to complete ANY forms unless it so states in his divorce decree which is doubtful. He can’t fill out FAFSA since he is non custodial and it is no more his business what Sue completed on her than it is what she reports on her 1040. That’s her problem. He was not asked to fill out PROFILE for 2009 and that’s not his problem either. There is no legal obligation to fill out either form and some parents refuse to do so or just don’t get around to it. That PROFILE is now in the picture for him, may mean that the school has requested it, or the forthcoming payments are now becoming a reality whereas they were not for 2009.</p>

33

<p>FYI, support payments were current through Dec. 09. I continued sending, via EFT, but ex refused payments for 4 months, so I discontinued. Also, I have many emails indicating my wish to be involved in D’s future and figuring out what is best for her.</p>

<p>And ClassicRockerDad is correct - I am going to pay as long as it doesn’t cause criminal charges or other detrimental effects to my daughter. She shouldn’t have to pay for her mom’s attempt to game the system. I just don’t know who schools hold responsible, the parents or the child? If they go back to the mom and say the only repercussion is that a chunk of the need-based aid has to be repaid, then that’s that, it gets paid back and the ex is in deeper debt than she thought she would be. If, however, they say my daughter’s transcripts are at risk, or worse, then I have to figure out some other way of meeting my legal obligation.</p>

34

<p>Any fraud or problem when it comes to the college getting paid will end up on your D’s head. No tickee, no laundry, and all payments have to be current and any aid received has to be legitimate if an verification is requested. But you have no right to any of the stuff your wife has submitted, and it really is not your business as it does relate to her tax forms and financials. What YOU need to do is to keep your nose clean and that included keeping current on child support whether payment is refused or not. If you do not, most states will make you pay back support when your spouse/child gets around to going after you for it. Whatever issues they have at their end is their problem and there is not much you can do about it without investing time, money and headache in it and probably needing a lawyer. But you gotta pay that child support. I suggest you send out monthly checks via bank from an escrow account so that the money is there and I would suggest you ask your ex in writing about what is happening with the 2010, 2011 payments. You are NOT permitted to just stop and any agreement needs to be in writing, maybe even notarized depending on the state.</p>

<p>And, yes, you can block any regular occurring electronic payment easily. Just tell your bank to set up a block. All the info is there to address it if it has been made before.</p>

35

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<p>happymom1 answered this in an earlier post</p>

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<p>If your daughter’s financial aid package award was the result of incorrect information submitted my best guess is that the financial aid office will look into it, address any discrepancies and give the family an opportunity to straighten things out. Once any outstanding balance is paid that will put an end to the matter. Since you have filled out the correct forms for this year it will alert the school to something that may have been a problem last year. Maybe they’ll look into it, maybe they won’t.</p>

<p>You might have brought up your concerns a year ago when your daughter first received her college acceptance and financial aid award. It’s a year later and it’s harder to straighten things out after the fact. I believe you when you say you are willing to pay what is stipulated in your divorce decree and yes, with a tight budget it will be a hardship on you new family.</p>

36

<p>Cpt, you may find me mean spirited, but I find OP mean spirited. I find the story of Child Support not being up to date disinenguous – it took 3 pages to drag it out. </p>

<p>Children of divorce have lower college attendance/graduation rates than children from intact families. IMHO, I do not think that where only one side of the story is known should a parent be supported in efforts such as this.</p>

37

<p>*Here is my primary concern: If I participate in what turns out to be fraud, as defined by the school and the government, who will be liable for the penalties? Do schools hold the student ultimately responsible, or the parents?
*</p>

<p>You can’t be accused of fraud since your ex “acted alone” and got that waiver. It’s not like you told her to do so. </p>

<p>However, you D could be held responsible, so that’s why it’s not a good idea for you bring it to the school’s attention that the NCP waiver wasn’t gotten in a correct manner.</p>

<p>I don’t know what the school will do. They might refigure last year’s aid and then send a bill.</p>

38

<p>Kayf, i didn’t say a word about your child support remark, but about the name which is totally off topic. You also don’t know the whole story. You gotta go by the facts given in these situation and not accuse or get mean spirited without reason, or it is pure rudeness. There is never just one side of the story in most of the posts here. It is an internet board and the best we can do is address the facts as given and not speculate. There are many reasons for things that none of us can guess. We can only address the part we are given and speculate somewhat on the reasons.</p>

<p>But snide remarks like that on a parent’s forum really are not welcome, in my opinion, which is why I called you on it. Disagreement, yes. Vociferous disagreement, even, yes. But remarks totally off subject with no relation to matter at hand are not in good form.</p>

39

<p>Cpt, most of the stuff on this board is parents, colleges etc. This topic, imho, is veering off into “how can I put the screws to my X?” </p>

<p>I am sorry to all if I came off as snide, but I think this thread does not belong here. </p>

<p>I would like anyone here the OP has said he is not current in child support. Is this the person you want to help?</p>

40

<p>kayf, I was told by my daughter that her mom told her she had received a full-ride scholarship and that everything was “taken care of”. The ex never contacted me (part of her pattern of avoidance throughout the post-divorce years) and regularly rebuffed my attempts at being a part of college decision making. </p>

<p>I am not a 2D, deadbeat dad caricature. I am a flawed, but caring parent with particular circumstances that I am dealing with trying to make the best of a bad situation. I got myself into a bad situation by not having a lawyer at my divorce, while my ex did. I have been on-time with my CS payments until ex started refusing them. I have a good relationship with my daughter as does my wife and other kids. No, it’s not perfect, and yes we have tough times. </p>

<p>I’m providing these personal glimpses so that perhaps people who post on other threads on this forum will stop and think before being so judgmental. Most folks are doing the best we can with the lots we’re given.</p>