Honestly, I think that is major and university specific. Yes, test optional likely is fine for many schools and majors, particularly in the humanities and social sciences. But if one can’t score a 650 on the math SAT, one’s ability to graduate from MIT, or most engineering majors, is in serious doubt
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Agreed. D got a 710 on Math and I doubt she could cut it at MIT. Lol. 650 too low of a cut off!
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I don’t understand why so many people imply that TO applicants are academically unprepared. My S22 applied TO (granted, not to T50 schools) and I’ve got no doubt he’ll do well in college. He’s an excellent writer, strong reader and did well on his AP exams. Could he have improved his SAT score - yes, he took it unprepared and didn’t do well on the math. Would that have made him more prepared for college? Not, in my view. For him, spending hours prepping or getting a tutor, wasn’t the best use of his time and I supported him in his decision.
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I also have a kid who does better on APs compared to SAT/ACT/PSAT, and I feel like the idea that “standardized tests make it possible to compare kids from different high schools” ought to apply to AP test scores as well. For folks who disagree, is there a feeling that a 5 is too easy to get? (Like the perfect score ACT is differentiating at a higher level than AP 5s?) if so, do people feel the SAT etc. is an ability test or an aptitude test? They changed the name but how much did they change the test when making the switch from “aptitude” to “achievement”. In the past, SAT was considered a straight-up IQ equivalent for MENSA purposes. Is that no longer valid? And…where this is all going…do people think colleges should be favoring IQ more or less than demonstrated ability to learn academic subjects? I’m not saying there are right or wrong answers, but to me, the logic behind test-optional at top schools would seem to lead towards a greater incorporation of something like national AP exams.
It depends upon what the student is academically prepared for-I agree that at schools outside the top 50, particularly non-quantitative majors, the SATs may not add much value. That is quite different from pursuing physics at Princeton, for example, or math at MIT, where anything less than an almost perfect score is a serious red flag.
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IIRC, Mensa does not accept SAT scores from 1995 onwards for Mensa eligibility purposes. I guess that’s when the SAT switched from an IQ (aptitude) test to an achievement test. I believe the current version of the SAT tracks topics that are taught in HS courses.
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@AustenNut - I do love the push to change the vernacular around the categorization of acceptance rates. As we’ve seen with the OP, it is certainly more than a numbers play. Students need to show through their applications and essays that they understand what makes school ABC special, why school ABC is a good fit for them and why they are a good fit for the school. This is not something that can be done effectively with 45+ applications!
Lets say for argument sake that 15 is a reasonable number of applications. How would you consider dividing it up?
Me - 1 in guaranteed. Or rolling admission. 2 in extremely likely.
Then the rest don’t matter.
Just make sure you could love, afford, and feel good about all 15.
Biggest mistake people make…applying to schools they have zero interest in attending or they will have zero chance to afford.
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With the hypothetical of 15 apps and the above tiers I would recommend:
2 apps to guaranteed schools (having a choice always important)
2 apps to extremely likely (again choice important)
11 apps to whatever combination of schools the student chooses.
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A high math SAT may be seen as necessary , but not sufficient, indication of being able to do work at MIT.
Put it another way, a low math SAT score is a negative indicator for that, but a high math SAT score is not a positive indicator for that.
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Even before 1995, the SAT was based on English and math that one would reasonably expect to learn through 11th grade in high school. (For whatever reason, the verbal section then was almost all an English vocabulary test.)
So even if it was seen as an “aptitude” / IQ test, scores were still affected by high school learning, even if not as directly as the Achievement Tests (later called SAT Subject Tests) were. High school English teachers then assigned vocabulary words to learn, probably to help students do better on the SAT.
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I agree! And was thinking the same when reading some of these posts. My D scored a 780 on SAT math but could never cut it at MIT. Never. She worked for her A/5 in BC calc and had no interest in pursuing more advanced math “for fun”. Contrast that to her reading science research articles for fun (chem, bio, genetics) or creative writing for fun… MIT would not be a good fit for her and I have no doubt that would have come across if she’d applied (never considered it). Maybe that math score would get her past some auto algorithm but no further.
I think we all agree that a high math score is necessary but nowhere near sufficient at MIT
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I’d extend that to many schools. Our S aced the math portion of SAT as a HS freshman. He did have to work on the non-math sections a little, but did end up with a perfect SAT score (back in the 2400 era). He did say that achieving that was more management than knowledge.
If you are a 2.8 or 3.5 student but test we’ll you will probably struggle in college. Not assured as there are other reasons but likely.
We see 1500+ on average to less students. Some may be learning disabled, not disciplined but many acknowledge they are unmotivated or lazy.
That’s unlikely to change but it does via challenge , maturity or independence…sometimes
Probably not that many schools have math general education requirements that are that difficult.
Yes, if you want to be a math or physics (or other high-math) major, not being able to do well at SAT math is a bad sign for being able to do well at the college math needed for such a major.
But many, probably the vast majority of, colleges’ math general education requirements only require something on the level of AP statistics. So a student who has trouble with SAT math could still be successful in a low/non-math major at many colleges.
Agree. Should be extended to many for math intensive majors…
I think overall for the nation there is definitely a general correlation between Scores and GPA, but on the HS level not so much:
- a suburban public known for being good but not a magnet/specialty school gave an award for top SAT 2 yrs ago: 1460. It is a big school so top 5% is 25 kids. This kid was one of 4 valedictorians.
-regional magnet: >80% of the school has a 1450, so definitely kids at the bottom of rank do. incidentally the state flagship admits from the top half only and really more like the top 1/3, and they all have 1500+ so all are >75th%ile for SAT at the flagship.
-local private: lots of kids with 1450 and “4.0uw” in the 4-7th deciles, top 5% is only 5 kids and only 2 were above 1450 .
One would hope college AOs have good info on each school and can sort through all of the variables, as to me a kid in the middle with a 1450 who also has not challenged themselves tons in classes is not nearly as interesting as a kid who is the first kid in years to crack 1400 and has taken all the hard courses the school offers(which may be not many).
It is just too hard on CC to see all of the stat-focused posts of rejections and WL and acceptances and really tell if there is a New Norm or not. I would love more data from a broad range of schools.
Talk to Humanities professors who have taught in various schools to hear what it’s like teaching Russian History or comparative literature to students with 480 average SAT verbal scores vs. 770.
You don’t think there’s a meaningful difference in the humanities vs. STEM?
Yes, there is the outlier- the well- read, critical thinker who doesn’t test well so their verbal SAT is not representative of their actual skillset. And the kid who aces the SAT verbal who cannot comprehend a primary or secondary source written at a college level.
But by and large, the SAT verbal score measures something which any college professor can quickly identify. And the level of class discussion, the sophistication of the analysis, and the quality of student work is definitely noticable.
If you don’t care about the humanities than fine- carry on.
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I am sure there is an enormous difference, but humanities faculties do not seem willing to defend the need for standardized test scores in the same way.
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