Is UC Berkeley underrated?

Colleges & Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>It is very hard to discuss issues with somebody who sees the world in black and white. ;)</p>

<p>The numbers you think are important, may not be the numbers that others think are important.</p>

<p>Your 4 criteria…</p>

<ol>
<li>Student body (I prefer stronger student peers to weaker ones)</li>
<li>Class sizes (I prefer smaller classes over large classes)</li>
<li>Stronger commitment to undergraduate teaching (I prefer more profs & fewer/no TAs, an institutional appreciation of teaching talents, and a faculty-supportive, if not applauding, student body)</li>
<li><p>Financial Resources and a willingness to spend this on undergraduate students (I prefer more money to less and how they spend their money is important, eg, fully meeting the financial needs of lower income students)</p></li>
<li><p>Student body (I prefer stronger student peers to weaker ones)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Others may agree, but others may measure a strong student body differently than average SAT scores.</p>

<ol>
<li> Class sizes (I prefer smaller classes over large classes)</li>
</ol>

<p>Others may agree, too. But sometimes others may not. Depends on the class and how it is taught, professor, subject, etc.</p>

<p>3… Stronger commitment to undergraduate teaching (I prefer more profs & fewer/no TAs, an institutional appreciation of teaching talents, and a faculty-supportive, if not applauding, student body)</p>

<p>Others may agree, but others may not care to take a class that includes TAs, or professors that have other interests too, for example world class research. Or others might like to take a class with a professor who is actively working in the field he is teaching. A professor who is working on discovering new knowledge. Cutting edge. Who is respected around the world.</p>

<ol>
<li>4. Financial Resources and a willingness to spend this on undergraduate students (I prefer more money to less and how they spend their money is important, eg, fully meeting the financial needs of lower income students)</li>
</ol>

<p>Again, others may agree, but others may measure this differently. </p>

<p>So we may agree with what is important in a school, and disagree on how to measure what is important.</p>

<p>Plus, what about other criteria that are just as important to get a great education that you haven’t mentioned?</p>

<p>I can think of many criteria that some students might think are critical… breadth and depth of courses offered, schools where a world view is taught, diversity of thought is important…a diversified student body including economically diversified, etc. A school where research opportunites are available, study abroad options, seminars, independent study, intimate atmospheres, vibrant atmospheres, location, weather, etc.</p>

<p>Which is why choosing the best schools are a personal choice.</p>

<p>There is no absolute.</p>

182

<p>Going back to the original post…
“Is UC Berkeley underrated? If it were a private school, would it have the same caliber and selectivity as HYSP?”</p>

<p>On the one hand, the fact that Berkeley is not a private school is the basis for much that is admirable about Berkeley. From its early years, California set out to develop a public university that could match any university in the world. To the extent that a university’s reputation and prestige is based on research and graduate education, Berkeley greatly succeeded. How many other states with comparable resources even attempted this? New York certainly didn’t, Ohio didn’t, Pennsylvania didn’t. Apart from Michigan and Wisconsin perhaps, no other state from it’s early years set out to build a university of this calibre.</p>

<p>Berkeley also was the flagship university for a state system of higher education that became a model for other states. </p>

<p>In part, Berkeley (and the rest of the state higher education system) showed the way to accomplish mass higher education that greatly benefited California and the rest of the country. As a public university, it provided an opportunity for higher education available to thousands who would not otherwise had that opportunity. (In fact, UC at one time was tuition-free!)</p>

<p>On the other hand, the accessibility of higher education, the resources committed to it, and the population of California, contributed to larger size of the student body at Berkeley. Even from the 1920’s, Berkeley had a much larger student body than many other state universities. By the mid-1950’s, problems related to size were evident at Berkeley, and these negatively impacted undergraduate education. These problems, I think, have proved intractable to this day. However, not all the problems are stem from size alone. Rather, these problems are inherent in what Clark Kerr described as the “multiversity”. While Berkeley may epitomize the corporatization and commercialization of higher education, it continues at an accelerated pace at all major graduate-research universities.</p>

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<p>zapfino-- all I have to say is I almost tear with happiness to see someone on CC reference Clark Kerr.</p>

184

<p>While he did not anticipate all subsequent trends, Clark Kerr wrote a prescient and incisive analysis of the state of universities that remains relevant to this day.</p>

<p>He’s been unfairly maligned on the left and the right.</p>

185

<p>

The problem is no one in the real world distinguishes between grad and undergrad.</p>

<p>Typical conversation:</p>

<p>Joe: Where did you go to school?
Me: Berkeley.
Joe: Oh wow, what did you study?
Me: Chemical Engineering.
Joe: Oh Wow!</p>

<p>Note the conversation did not continue like this:
Joe: for Undergrad or Grad?
Me: Undergrad.
Joe: <em>scoffs</em> Oh, that’s not as good as their grad programs.</p>

<p>You can insert any major in the conversation…</p>

186

<p>Back in the 1960’s , Berkeley was on a par with HPY in most rankings.</p>

187

<p>what happened? lol
In the movie “W.”
Cal is mentioned playing against Yale in football by the senior Bush
This evokes the feeling that they were considered on par many years ago</p>

188

<p>

The people who matter DO. ;-)</p>

189

<p>Excuse me, please note that Engineering is exceptional. As I am an Science & Engineering major, this thread drives me crazy. Berkeley is not even a competition with HYP in those fields. Better to bring MIT, Stanford.</p>

190

<p>This is about Grade Inflation and UG issue.</p>

<p>Excerpts from Stanford Daily</p>

<p><a href=“http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page...y=0001_article[/url]”>http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page...y=0001_article&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>You got Stanford kids comin’ to your program? Man, good luck with them — I heard they’re a bunch of whiners and moaners.”
Yes, my friends, such were the words spoken by some Harvard </p>

<p>professor to one of our charismatic Australian professors a few weeks before we flew into Australia.</p>

<p>Apparently in Australia, they don’t believe in the wonderful, cushy system we have come to love at Stanford called grade inflation.</p>

<p>No, our professor told us, not everyone can get an “A.” In fact, if you complete an adequate job, you can hopefully get a “C,” and if you manage to get above average, you can cheerfully accept a “B.”</p>

<p>All hell broke loose. “What about my precious med school applications?” some of us screamed. “How am I going to get into law school with a bunch of ‘C’s on my transcript?” others cried out.</p>

<p>That night, the phone lines were busy as our perplexed Australian professors spoke to the folks back at Stanford. “Don’t worry,” they told us in the morning. “Your grades will be ‘adjusted’ to Stanford standards at the end of the course.”</p>

191

<p>“People are not at Stanford to learn, they are there to get good grades.”
From stanford Blog.</p>

<p>[Grade</a> Inflation Exists, It Sucks, But We Don’t Want to Lose Our A’s | The Unofficial Stanford Blog](<a href=“http://tusb.stanford.edu/2010/02/grade_inflation_exists_it_suck.html]Grade”>http://tusb.stanford.edu/2010/02/grade_inflation_exists_it_suck.html)</p>

192

<p>In what way is it underrated? Most people discuss Berkeley alongside schools like Yale, Harvard, MIT, Stanford…etc.</p>

<p>On that note, it’s severely overrated for undergraduate studies. As an overall institution though, considering the quality graduate/phd level programs, Berkeley’s respect is well deserved.</p>

193

<p>Hard to say, since if Berkeley were more highly viewed, then other great colleges could be underrated.</p>

194

<p>Berkeley is one of the most frequently cited overrated schools, not underrated. I used to think Berkeley deserved rank 22 in the nation but when I found out the SAT data for enrolled students (not admitted which is more common but not as relevant to the quality of the student body), I began to question even that. </p>

<p>

Of course people discern between grad and undergrad in the real world. Your example is but of a casual conversation but it would be extremely irresponsible of any employer not to fully grasp his interviewee’s credentials. </p>

<p>Even if people treat Berkeley grad and undergrad as the same as prestigious (which I highly question they do), they will ALWAYS want/need to know whether you’re grad or undergrad when it ultimately matters because there is no way a BS is equal to a PhD. This entire tidbit is far more important than that the school you came from was Berkeley!</p>

<p>People will, therefore, always be able to discriminate between Berkeley grad and undergrad if they want to.</p>

195

<p>Top 25 for UG and top 4 for most grads, I would say it is perfectly placed. Our undergraduate departments are alright, but they could be better.</p>

196

<p>

</p>

<p>So, for you, SAT data should determine the greatness of the undergrad school? LOL
And what’s wrong with Berkeley’s SAT data for enrolled students (1910-2260)?
Half of Berkeley students have SAT scores equal to those of Harvard’s and half of Berkeley students are still larger than the whole Harvard undergrad students.</p>

197

<p>^You seemed to think so when you made the “eliteness” thread. SAT was one of your indicators. Do I believe that the quality of faculty matters? Yes, but not for public universities. The interaction between students and faculty is greatly limited due to faculty-student-ratio constraints.</p>

<p>Also, Berkeley’s students who “enroll” in the university only have ~2030 SAT points. It “admits” students with ~2080 SAT points. Relative to some of its rivals, there is a greater gap between what the university demands during its admissions and those who are willing to attend.</p>

<p>“Enrolled” SAT data is more difficult to dig up because most applicants are simply interested to know if they’ll be admitted, but, obviously, it is more indicative of the strength of the student body.</p>

198

<p>^ But Berkeley does not weigh SAT as much as they do HS GPA, unlike most elite privates that are SAT conscious. Aside from that, Berkeley does not superscore SATs. All the elite privates do. </p>

<p>

It’s actually 2085, using your formula. </p>

<p>

And you think Harvard does not admit students with a 2080 in SAT?</p>

<p>Berkeley admits students with 1800 SATs provided they have very high HS GPA. Berkeley admissions are very different from elite privates.</p>

199

<p>Hmmmm… You’re probably correct RML. Do you have a source?</p>

<p>(I’ve researched around and I’m confused by my findings. I think I’ve been misconstruing data. =/ )</p>

<p>EDIT: I’m not exactly sure, but I’m compelled to believe that the stats on the Berkeley site are the “admitted” stats and not the “enrolled” stats. There isn’t a lot of clear indicators of what the stats reflect; however, UCLA clearly distinguishes between the two stats in its reports and the 2009 UC freshman profiles from the UC website seem to be based off its “enroll” stats and not “admitted” stats. I, therefore, lean toward that the “enroll” stat of Berkeley (as represented by the UC website) is 2033 and not 2085.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/adm_fr/Frosh_Prof09.htm[/url]”>http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/adm_fr/Frosh_Prof09.htm&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California&lt;/a&gt;
(The UC stats according to Wikipedia… the UC site seems to have updated their data to 2010.)</p>

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<p>This is just my personal opinion but </p>

<p>HSYP </p>

<p>60% Near perfect SAT and near perfect GPA or winners of Science Olympiad etc.
15% Athletes<br>
35% legacy establishment and otehrs including foreign students (son of Minister of Finance of Singapore etc).</p>

<p>Considering graduating rate over 93%. (George Bush or Al Gore’s Son graduated!)</p>

<p>The book was written by Daniel Golden who graduated from Harvard.
The Price of Admission: How America’s Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges – and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates by Daniel Golden.
A heavy-hitting, name-naming expos</p>