Is UC Berkeley underrated?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>To provide an example from the opposite side, I’ll discuss how people on the West Coast view Michigan. Until I came to CC, I thought of Michigan as a stereotypical Big Ten school; low on academics, high on athletics (and football failure in 2007 and 2008), and this thinking definitely mirrored that of the majority of educated/intelligent people I know. It came as a surprise that Michigan was considered such a good school (and really, any other state university except UCB and UCLA.) The prestige of state schools, regardless of their efforts in attracting out of state students, is largely dependent on the region you are in. That is, their perception is much more prone to regional biases than private universities (although private universities are definitely subject to them as well.)</p>

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<p>^ You’re definition and concept of the word prestigious is therefore wrong.</p>

<p>Imperial College London is certainly not popular, but it surely is a very prestigious school. Whether or not you’ve heard of it does not affect its status as a prestigious school. The same holds true for Amherst, Williams, Shwarthmore, Mudd, Caltech, Olin or Lamborghini and Ferrari.</p>

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<p>Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public
Stanford and Yale in second place
by Frank Newport</p>

<p>GALLUP NEWS SERVICE</p>

<p>PRINCETON, NJ – What’s the best college or university in the nation? To some degree, it depends on whom you ask.</p>

<p>The eagerly anticipated, yet controversial, rankings of colleges and universities by U.S. News and World Report were released over the weekend. These rankings are based on a complex system that gives points to each college, based on such factors as assessment by presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions at peer institutions, the proportion of freshmen who return to the campus and eventually graduate, faculty resources, SAT/ACT scores of enrolled students, spending per student on instruction, and the alumni giving rate. The reputational component of the system – which comprises 25% of the final score for a given college – is based, as noted, on ratings by college professionals, not the general public.</p>

<p>The U.S. News and World Report rankings are split into several different categories, but the one to which the news media pay most attention is the category “National Universities –Doctoral,” which includes most larger universities.</p>

<p>The final results in this category in this year’s U.S. News rankings were as follows: Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, California Institute of Technology, Duke, Stanford, University of Pennsylvania, Dartmouth, and Washington University in St. Louis.</p>

<p>The Public’s View</p>

<p>Gallup deals in the public’s opinion, and following in this tradition, from time to time Gallup measures what colleges the general public considers to be the best in the nation. This year, respondents to a July Gallup Poll were given the opportunity to name two schools in answer to this question: “All in all, what would you say is the best college or university in the United States?” Respondents were asked to name two.</p>

<p>There is one clear winner in the court of public opinion, Harvard, which is mentioned by one out of four Americans as their first or second response to this question, more than twice as many “mentions” as are given to any other college.</p>

<p>Based on the combined first and second mentions of the public, 35 schools are mentioned by at least 1% of Americans as the best in the nation, including all eight of the Ivy League schools (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, University of Pennsylvania, Princeton and Yale), and 18 state universities.</p>

<p>About a fourth of the respondents mentioned a college or university other than those named below, which means that there are a wide variety of colleges that are perceived to be the best by only a very small percentage of the population. Additionally, as can be seen, about one out of five Americans did not name any college or university.</p>

<p>All in all, what would you say is the best college or university in the United States? (open-ended responses)</p>

<p>Best/
Second Best</p>

<p>%</p>

<p>Harvard University 24</p>

<p>Stanford University 11</p>

<p>Yale University 11</p>

<p>Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) 6</p>

<p>University of California at Berkeley 4</p>

<p>Notre Dame University 4</p>

<p>Princeton University 4</p>

<p>University of Michigan 3</p>

<p>Duke University 3</p>

<p>University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) 3</p>

<p>University of Texas 2</p>

<p>Texas A&M University 2</p>

<p>Ohio State University 2</p>

<p>University of North Carolina 2</p>

<p>Penn State University 2</p>

<p>University of Pennsylvania (Penn) 2</p>

<p>University of Minnesota 1
Brown University 1
Cornell University 1
University of Virginia 1
Brigham Young University (BYU) 1
University of Tennessee 1
Michigan State University 1
Purdue University 1
University of Iowa 1
Georgetown University 1
University of Arizona 1
University of Southern California (USC) 1
Louisiana State University (LSU) 1
Indiana University 1
University of Washington 1
Columbia University 1
University of Wisconsin 1
Boston University 1
New York University 1</p>

<p>None *
Other 36
No opinion 22</p>

<p>To a significant degree, the schools that are at the top of the list of schools named by Americans also appear at the top of the list as compiled by U.S. News.</p>

<p>There are several interesting differences:</p>

<pre><code>* Princeton, tied for first place in the U.S. News rankings (and in sole possession of its top ranking last year), is not at the top of the list in terms of public perceptions. Princeton is mentioned by 4% of the general public as the top school in the nation, tying it with U Cal Berkeley and Notre Dame in the Gallup reputational rankings.

  • The very highly rated California Institute of Technology, Dartmouth College, and Washington University in St. Louis, all in the top 10 in the U.S. News ratings, are mentioned by less than 1% of the general population.

  • Larger state universities such as Cal Berkeley, Michigan, Texas, Texas A & M, Ohio State, North Carolina, UCLA, and Penn State all are mentioned by 2% or more of the general population, even though none appear in the top 10 in the U.S. News rankings.
    </code></pre>

<p>There are significant regional differences in ratings of the colleges or universities, as one might expect:</p>

<p>All in all, what would you say is the best college or university in the United States? (open-ended responses)</p>

<p>Clearly, the prestige of Harvard (and to a lesser degree Yale and Stanford) is fairly universal across regions of the country. But there are distinctions in the top five within each region: Princeton, MIT, Penn State and Penn do best in the East, Duke and Texas A & M in the South, Michigan and Notre Dame in the Midwest, and Berkeley and UCLA in the West.</p>

<p>What about post-graduates themselves, who might be expected to know better than others what schools are prestigious, given that they applied to schools at least twice (for undergraduate and graduate work) and most likely spent a good deal of time evaluating schools? Here’s the list of schools most often mentioned by college graduates with at least some post-graduate education:</p>

<p>Harvard 29%
Stanford 27
Yale 14
MIT 11
Berkeley 7
Princeton 7
Michigan 7</p>

<p>The biggest difference here is the relatively higher rating for Stanford, which almost ties Harvard among this group.</p>

<p>Survey Methods</p>

<p>The most recent results are based on telephone interviews with 1,003 national adults, aged 18+, conducted July 18-20, 2003. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is ±3 percentage points.</p>

<p>In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.</p>

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<p>amciw. Educated and intelligent people should be aware that there are more than two outstanding public universities in this country. Michigan has been an academic powerhouse for well over 100 years, certainly longer than UCLA has even been in existence. Educated and intelligent people would have figured that out somehow before just assuming a school is not up to par just because they are well known for playing football. I don’t believe in regional ignorance as being an excuse in this day and age of the internet, with or without CC available.</p>

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<p>RML-- I appreciate my predictability, but honestly, are we going to make the case that a school which is widely recognized as one of the best in the world is underrated?</p>

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<p>^^^^^I think the point here is how Berkeley is underrated at USNWR and also by many here at CC. In reality, you are correct of course.</p>

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<p>It’s not prestigious here in the US, even by most highly educated people. I didn’t hear about that school until now when I went and looked it up. I don’t think the word popular is correct, but definitely something needs to be heard of by most in the subject group in question to be considered prestigious. Its probably prestigious in London, but it certainly is not here. </p>

<p>As to my definition of prestige:
<a href=“http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prestigious[/url]”>http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prestigious&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>According to dictionary.com prestige is defined as “having a high reputation; honored; esteemed” and its synonyms are “respected, illustrious, notable” as well as “distinguished”.</p>

<p>Something can be distinguished, esteemed, and honored, without being too well known like Amherst. But can it really be illustrious, or notable if many in the group of question don’t know it exists??? I’m not saying that no one on the East Coast knows of Berkeley but (it can be argued) that not enough people know of it to gain top 15 status. Perhaps you wouldn’t believe it, but some (not many) people when they hear I’m going to Stanford are like, in Connecticut (a reference to Stamford). Even though anyone in the know would regard HYP and Stanford as equals I still can not seriously say that on the East Coast Stanford is equally prestigious to HYP. And the survey confirms that (with the reverse happening on the West Coast).</p>

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In that case, I think a better question would ask if Berkeley is “underranked.” Clearly USNWR realizes it’s a great school – look at the peer assessment score. Just as clearly, Berkeley doesn’t do as well in the other factors.</p>

<p>I doubt anyone underrates Berkeley or Michigan on these boards. The level of cheerleading for both institutions is truly impressive.</p>

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<p>OK. Berkeley is underranked at USNWR.</p>

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<p>That’s what I think every time I hear Imperial College is mentioned. It’s also what I think of Berkeley, obviously. Now, there are people out there that don’t think the same way like I do (on this specific topic). There are people in Africa or Iran or North Korea that don’t think highly of Ferrari. Many of them haven’t heard of the car brand, Ferrari. But their ignorance doesn’t make Ferrari a lousy brand. Ferrari is a prestigious brand, whether or not the Africans or Somalians or Lebanese or Mexicans or YOU have heard of it or not. When it’s prestigious, it’s prestigious. Period.</p>

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<p>RML you are conflating quality with prestige. Just because someone does not know about something doesn’t affect its quality. Berkeley is a quality school regardless of its prestige. However prestige does depend on if I have heard of it. How can something be prestigious (to me at least) if I haven’t heard of it? Prestige isn’t just quality its also reputation. Something can be considered prestigious in one place and not somewhere else. Like in Iran, Tehran University is regarded has highly prestigious. However, it is not prestigious here in America. It’s not “When it’s prestigious, it’s prestigious. Period.” In the extreme lets pretend no one besides those that attended Harvard knew Harvard was amazing. Would Harvard still be prestigious? It would still be a high quality school, yet prestigious? No.</p>

<p>I know this is an argument about semantics, but it is a fine yet very important line.</p>

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<p>All you Michigan and Berkeley posters just need to STOP boosting your schools. Michigan and Berkeley are fine top 25 schools. They ARE NOT top 10 schools. They ARE NOT on par with the Ivies/Chicago/Duke/MIT/Stanford quality wise.</p>

<p>Prestige wise though, Michigan is probably a top 15 school because of its large alumni base. Cal’s domestic reputation doesn’t crack top 3 though. Its international rep is easily top 5 though.</p>

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<p>What do you suggest could trigger a positive change in the USNews ranking for Berkeley? </p>

<p>Allow the school to change the data collected? Drop the SAT from the selectivity index and only use the top 10% element? Allow Berkeley to count the number of applications differently? Tweak the methodology for the remaining metrics? </p>

<p>Or simply seek different PA respondents to generate an even higher score on the Peer Assesment?</p>

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<p>Well, back in the early days of USNWR ranking xiggi, Berkeley was a top ten school. Why don’t you tell me how they jobbed the numbers to make such schools like Vanderbilt, Emory, Notre Dame, and WUSTL come in higher?</p>

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<p>I think few college observers would deny UC Berkeley’s outstanding reputation among academia, among graduate students, and among international students (look at the responses in this thread). If a career in academia is one’s goal, then perhaps UCB is underrated as an undergraduate destination, but otherwise, it really is a shame that some folks remain anchored to only a single metric (prestige among academia) and don’t appreciate that there is commonly so much more to the college experience than how acclaimed some professors at the school might be. Such myopia misses the many, many great UNDERGRADUATE colleges all across the USA, including the aforementioned Vanderbilt, Emory, Notre Dame, Wash U and many others. </p>

<p>If you think that Vandy, Emory et al are inferior places, then maybe you’ve haven’t visited these schools, met their recent students/graduates, investigated the classroom experience that they deliver, seen the resource commitment that they make to undergrads, and/or talked with employers about the quality of these schools and their graduates. These are pretty great places with superior reputations for the UNDERGRADUATE experience that they deliver to their students. </p>

<p>Pointing out the strength of Vandy, Emory et al is not meant to diminish UC Berkeley, but rather to build awareness and understanding of these less historically prominent places that are truly special colleges. As xiggi asks above, what metric would you change to elevate UCB above these also-excellent colleges? Investigate a little and hopefully you’ll come to understand why these schools are ranked ahead of UCB. IMO, it’s a deserved position for UNDERGRADUATE study.</p>

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<p>“These are pretty great places with superior reputations for the UNDERGRADUATE experience that they deliver to their students”</p>

<p>Not where I live.
Where I live, almost nobody cares about Emory, Vandy, ND, etc. and that includes people I know in admissions for grad schools or work in grad or professional schools.</p>

<p>And I live within driving distance of Xiggi’s new school.</p>

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<p>Are you making a reference to the original rankings of 1983 through 1988 that were solely based on reputational surveys and … not much else? </p>

<p>I can see why you would cling to such undefined and liberal beauty contests. As soon as the USNews realized it needed some basis to support their UNDERGRADUATE rankings, your cherished schools tumbled, and without the Peer Assessment would have gone further south. I think that is what you called being “jobbed.”</p>

<p>PS Historical rankings</p>

<p>Berkeley in
83 5
85 7
88 5
Since 1989 24 13 13 16 16 19 23 26 27 23 22 20 20 20 20 21 21 20 21</p>

<p>Michigan in
83 7
88 8
Since 1989 25 17 21 22 24 23 21 24 24 23 25 25 25 25 25 25 22 25 24</p>

<p>And, for the record, in the original survey of 1983, UIUC was tied for 8th with Cornell. Just below Berkeley and Michigan.</p>

<p>In the original survey, unranked schools comprised </p>

<p>Penn<br>
Duke University
Columbia University
University of Chicago<br>
WUSTL<br>
Northwestern University
Brown University<br>
Johns Hopkins University<br>
Rice University
Vanderbilt University<br>
Emory University<br>
University of Notre Dame<br>
Georgetown University<br>
University of Virginia </p>

<p>Enough said!</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t automatically disagree with you. Location and exposure matters. </p>

<p>You won’t find many students from the Bay Area at Emory or Vanderbilt or Wash U (though I think they’re plenty at Notre Dame). OTOH, I doubt you’ll find many students from Atlanta or Nashville or St. Louis at UCB either. So for any of these undergraduate colleges (probably with the exception of ND), familiarity and people caring about the school definitely wanes as you move to great distances. </p>

<p>However, re your grad school statement, I disagree if you are suggesting that students from Vandy, Emory, ND, Wash U, others will be disrespected if they apply to California grad schools. IMO, top students from any of these colleges, UCB included, will have plenty of excellent choices and will be helped to varying degrees because of their school’s name.</p>

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<p>"What do you suggest could trigger a positive change in the USNews ranking for Berkeley? </p>

<p>Allow the school to change the data collected? Drop the SAT from the selectivity index and only use the top 10% element? Allow Berkeley to count the number of applications differently? Tweak the methodology for the remaining metrics? </p>

<p>Or simply seek different PA respondents to generate an even higher score on the Peer Assesment?"</p>

<p>Add breadth and depth of academic subjects. Have a metric that measures most repected professors. Get rid of alumni giving. Increase the use of educating lower income individuals in the rankings. (Since that increases the social class of the student). Deemphasize the SAT since schools like UC Berkeley do that. Stop allowing SAT scores from different test dates to be included as one test score. UC Berkeley doesn’t need any help with top 10% of the students. The average underweighted GPA at Berkeley is 3.9, the same as Stanford, and the weighted gpa is well over 4.0. The private schools have their own way of getting around this number. All the students aren’t counted in this metric. Make the school less liberal so Xiggi won’t have as many problems with it. Make Xiggi less conservative. ;)</p>

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<p>“However, re your grad school statement, I disagree if you are suggesting that students from Vandy, Emory, ND, Wash U, others will be disrespected if they apply to California grad schools. IMO, top students from any of these colleges, UCB included, will have plenty of excellent choices and will be helped to varying degrees because of their school’s name.”</p>

<p>The students at Vandy, Emory, ND won’t be disrepected. They just don’t have much of an impact and are not thought about much where I live.</p>

<p>UC Berkeley is the most represented school. Well maybe Stanford. :)</p>

<p>Oh, and for overseas students, Berkeley trumps all the above schools. I think Bluebayou’s link has it right.</p>

<p>PS… My daughter applied to Wash U. :)</p>