<p>You realize that right now you’re coming onto the Michigan board criticizing someone for saying that Michigan is a higher caliber school than Xavier Louisiana and all you have to back it up is an opinion article in a Minneapolis newspaper? Pretty absurd if you ask me. I don’t even know why you’re here as its pretty obvious that you have no connection to the University.</p>
<p>There’s plenty more to back up my position regarding the myths of “degree prestige” as it relates to undergrad degrees. The Strib article is JUST the most recent. “google” the concept outside your maizeandblue bubble, and see how many for, or against this notion that you’re spewing?</p>
<p>I’m just offering sound, supported advice regarding affordability vs. the “country club” ideal you’re promoting of a UMich experience. Objectively? nobody should incur debt for an undergrad degree. There is no credible support that it translates into better/more life success. And “experience” is way too subjective to be quantified.</p>
<p>Why can’t you just be honest when people ask a legitimate question?</p>
<p>I’m not living in any sort of bubble. Personally, I made the conscious decision to go OOS to Michigan and I’ve never regretted it for a second. For what I’m studying there’s few better places in the country and I got a fantastic job this summer purely because of the brand name of the school (literally, when they called me back to let me know they said that they usually wouldn’t take someone my age but since I go to Michigan they thought I’d do well). So there you go, better life and more success for me at least. No I’m not premed, but there are so many groups and people to connect with on this campus that are that it would be impossible not to find some sort of way to use Michigan’s resources to your advantage when going here and make it a great experience. I’m gonna go ahead and guess that either you or someone in your family didn’t get into UM, it’s usually the reason for people that come here and argue adamantly against going to Michigan. Nonetheless, for any potential students out there, don’t let someone like this take away from what Michigan really has to offer, which is a top notch education in the best college town in America, along with the country’s largest alumni network and a very well-rounded student body. I’m being honest when I say this, giterdone, sorry you don’t agree with me but I’m not going to get in a ****ing match with someone trying to argue for a school probably most people here hadn’t even heard of before this post over the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>You have school spirit (and rich parents), I’m happy for you. That doesn’t change the facts.</p>
<p>And for the record, being in the Midwest, I know PLENTY of UMich alum (mostly middle managers that report to me :)), And my D was accepted to UMich and declined for the very reasons/facts we’re discussing.</p>
<p>And let me be clear - in an UNDEGRAD context, the UMich premium is a myth. Ross Grad? (as with many Grad schools) different story. And I am a Wolverine fan. Just tired of the misinformation and the fact that some think being on a college forum gives them license to perpetuate this misinformation.</p>
<p>I’m gonna guess you live in Minnesota because of the StarTrib article. The top Michigan grads are not the ones going to work for Target in Minneapolis. There’s nothing wrong with being a middle manager in Minnesota but many people strive for more and Michigan is a much better place to break into Wall Street, for example, over an unknown school. Also way to keep it classy.</p>
<p>I feel like Michigan is too good to give up. If we were talking Michigan and Penn State or a similar school, I’d say go to the other school because you are getting a quality education and saving thousands. But since not very many people have even heard of Xavier (from what I have witnessed), I would have to say Michigan. :-/</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s the point. “Brand” awareness/recognition is meaningless in an undergrad.</p>
<p>If you have the money or can get the money from grants, parents, grandparents or whomever, and they don’t care where you spend it? go for it. But to expect or believe you will exit an “elite” undergrad school after spending upwards of 100k MORE than you would have elsewhere, with any tangible advantage? or WORSE, to recommend someone incur debt in exchange for chasing this pot of gold??? is irresponsible.</p>
<p>Okay, folks, not a fair fight here. Giterdone, I understand you’re bitter about your child not receiving the kind of financial aid/merit you had expected. And there is merit to the notion of affordability, and you have the insight of years in the working world to understand that prestige for prestige’s sake is not worth the OP putting his folks under undue financial strain – I am also a parent and completely agree with all that.</p>
<p>But please do not disrespect Maizeandblue’s opinion, which is also formed from direct experience ON the campus and in terms of seeking employment, and please be careful not to let your bitterness influence your perceptions of the value of things such as peer assessments and some of the more legitimate aspects of rank.</p>
<p>To the OP – there are in fact several benefits to Michigan in your case IF your parents can comfortably afford THE DIFFERENTIAL. Now, you can CREATE YOUR OWN benefits wherever you go, and not attending Mich is not fatal.</p>
<p>For the record, the amount of STUDENT debt load you’re talking about falls within the national average and in fact is also the amount of debt load most IN STATE students carry.</p>
<p>What is more concerning is that the burden of the REST of that $53k a year falls to your parents to pay. Even if they <em>can</em> afford it, you do realize that in general most children inherit whatever balance of assets their parents leave them at some future point, and that some children end up helping finance their parent’s elder care. Also, if in fact your parents have that money in terms of savings, that is money that could also be put to use for grad school, or a downpayment on a house, or the start up costs of a practice.</p>
<p>Do you really want your parents to spend down $160k? Think about it. Only you can know the answer.
Michigan is a great school and a great experience. But OOS students need to carefully consider whether it is in fact a wise move in the context of their own family’s financial situation – not on whether it’s their “dream.” It is four years of a very long life, hopefully 
Do not overrate the value of a “dream” in and of itself. Make sure it makes sense on other levels.</p>
<p>Well; I am bitter - but not about the lack of FA. More-so about the fallacy of undergrad prestige that’s driving up the cost of education. It’s been widely documented that Universities are more inclined to charge what they can (striking a balance between matriculation and the highest possible price) than they are interested in driving costs out of the process.</p>
<p>Another piece that supports this; <a href=“The Price of Perception - The New York Times”>The Price of Perception - The New York Times;
<p>Kids (KIDS!) come to this board seeking sound advice. Not support for rationalizations. I acknowledged “M&B’s” good fortune (although upon re-reading, maybe “backhandedly”). Regardless - commonsense should prevail, and sometimes that needs to be shouted back just as loudly as those trying to shout it down.</p>
<p>I am a fan of UMich - I can root for them whether D went there or not. And still will. Although it won’t cost me a dime.</p>
<p>Giterdone - you wrote awhile back:
"D’s dream was to enter Ross after LSA for her sophomore year. But poor FA package killed that. What softened the blow for her is; neighbor, now freshman at UMich matriculated with a 3.98 UW gpa and 35 ACT - translated into a 3.3 gpa at LSA and was turned away from the Ross BBA program. Now what?! that’s what he went to UMich for… we’ll see.</p>
<p>D is headed to IS school with reputable/credible (not top 10) but decent undergrad Biz program."</p>
<p>That is great and I’m sure a good decision for her and you. But, it seems that she and you did place some added value of UMich over the school she enrolled in. Obviously not to the degree that it would have taken but, more so than the no value you protray. </p>
<p>For most, there is certainly going to be some value to UMich over many schools. It just is up to each to determine how much more it is worth.</p>
<p>Don’t confuse “preference” for “value” Of course there was desire, or there wouldn’t have been an application. We aren’t talking degrees of separation here; we’re talking about thousands of dollars!</p>
<p>Yes, for 6 or 8 or maybe even 10 thousand dollars over 4 years??? few are going to argue with those differences. But $100,000+? that is serious cash and there better be quantifiable, public, easily accessible, bullet proof, tangible evidence to support that kind of premium.</p>
<p>Giterdone,
I’ve been reading your posts for a while now, and they blatantly give the vibe of bitterness toward UM and the cost of education for OOS students, etc. Yes, UM is very stingy with aid for OOS students. This is no secret, and if you and your daughter were under the impression otherwise, then you did not do your homework before applying. My son applied to an out-of-state college that specializes in engineering and technology. He was accepted and offered a $17,000 scholarship, which sounds great, but it left a gap of about $40,000/year. We knew the cost of this college was very high, and we talked ahead of time about this, knowing that he would not be able to even consider attending without very significant aid. He, therefore, did not get emotionally invested in this college. They can give what they can give - it’s their college and their decision. No hard feelings. </p>
<p>Thankfully, we are in-state for Michigan and he will get his undergrad at UM with no debt. He could have applied to other OOS schools, of course, but we knew our financial limits and we made wise decisions based on those limits. Yes, public universities are supported by taxpayers, and as a Michigan taxpayer, my son is now getting financial benefit from that fact.</p>
<p>I more and more view the college application process like buying anything else - a house, a car, shoes. Some of us can afford BMWs and buy them. Some of us can afford BMWs and choose not to buy them. The prestige is worth it for some, for other it’s not. Most of us can not afford a BMW. To me, shopping for colleges is not very different. It’s the business of education. And students should only “buy” what they can afford. Some can afford full OOS tuition and don’t mind paying it. Good for them - who am I (or you) to say it’s not “worth it” for them? </p>
<p>I hope you and your daughter embrace her college choice and can move forward. I’m sure she’ll do great wherever she lands.</p>
<p>Agree 100%.</p>
<p>And as I’ve said; for IS’ers, UMich is a deal. But to try and convince anyone that paying twice as much as the IS’er sitting next to them, for the same degree? is also a deal? And to incur debt to do it? That’s what I rail against.</p>
<p>Not knowing the Institutional (aid) Method was applied by state schools? is where I fell short on homework. I ignorantly assumed the FAFSA EFC would apply since it was a govt. formula. But I’m still not bitter about that. I make a lot of money and have assets that some schools think should be available to finance an undergrad degree. I don’t agree with that and I don’t feel singled out. It’s just the way it is. I just think the “sales job” that pushes kids to beg, borrow or steal for an undergrad from certain institutions, is wrong.</p>
<p>[University</a> of Michigan featured on Colbert Report as a school ‘doing it right’](<a href=“http://annarbor.com/news/university-of-michigan-featured-on-tuesdays-colbert-report/]University”>University of Michigan featured on Colbert Report as a school 'doing it right')</p>
<p>The Michigan Difference.</p>
<p>God bless you, M&B. I am a Michigan fan.</p>
<p>Hersh, finally after naming, in order; MIT, UVA, “The Honors program in Every major college” and Hobart/William Smith, 5 minutes and 17 seconds into a 6 and a half minute segment…mentioned UMich.</p>
<p>There are better advocates for UMich, than this.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p>^^^^You certainly aren’t among them.</p>
<p>That’s for sure. Not at 50k a year.</p>
<p>Giterdone, not that Hersh is an authority that I know, but he was clearly not listing universities in order of excellence. He was merely naming universities that he thought were not shortchanging students on providing them with a rigorous education grounded in the liberal arts. He did not spend more time on MIT or UVa than he did on Michigan. The fact that he even mentioned is testament the university’s excellent curriculum and commitment to undergraduate education.</p>
<p>I am not sure I understand your misgivings. All universities of Michigan’s stature cost between $35,000 and $40,000 in tuition alone. Michigan is no different. In fact, when you include other costs of attendance, Michigan usually ends up cheaper than most of its peers. </p>
<p>If think you resent the fact that Michigan provides a discounted rate for residents of the state. That is not unique to Michigan. That is how public universities function. People pay taxes to the state, and in return, they get to attend public schools at a discounted rate. </p>
<p>But even among public universities, Michigan is not the most expensive. All of the UCs, College of W&M, Vermont and UVa charge approximately the same. Many other public universities are catching up quickly, including Colorado-Boulder, Texas-Austin and UIUC. The only way public universities can maintain their high standards is through financial stability. Tuition is one of the ways universities remain financially viable. </p>
<p>I definitely agree that Michigan (and other universities like it) can do a lot more to make itself more affordable to middle and lower income families, but that is going to take time to fix.</p>
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</p>
<p>I disagree, Alexandre. Not all Universities of UMich’s stature charge the same. Sure, many do - but many do not. I want to move away from the presumption that I’m denigrating UMich - I am not. What I am addressing is the equation; Quality education = high cost. UMich provides quality, therefore is entitled to charge more (extort high sums and burden KIDS with debt in exchange for a “valuable” UMich undergrad degree).</p>
<p>Universities charge what they can; a balancing act between applications, acceptances and yield, which is heavily influenced by ratings, and reputation. But not predicated on “quality” (or the former certainly drowns out the latter).</p>
<p>We have to reference a list if we’re going to talk “stature” and I like the Forbes methodology better than USNWR - especially in this case, because it proves my point 
but, the Forbes list has been recognized, as valuable as any other.</p>
<p>UMich is 93rd on the Forbes most recent list.
U of M, Morris is 90th.</p>
<p>Both state schools. Both charge (practically) the same for IS. But for OOS? One has a sticker price 1/3rd of the other. Why? because they do not attract the attention or have the “brand” cache of the other. Does that matter in the real world? not to Forbes.</p>
<p>Forbes ranking 2012</p>
<ol>
<li>U of Minnesota-Moris</li>
<li>U of Michigan</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins</li>
<li>WUSTL</li>
<li>UC-San Diego</li>
<li>USC</li>
<li>U of Texas-Austin</li>
<li>NYU
…
…
…</li>
<li>U of Minnesota-Twin Cities</li>
</ol>
<p>U of Minnesota-Morris did well in the Forbes ranking. The other U of Minnesota … uh, did not fare so well. It is, in fact, more than 200 places behind Morris.</p>
<p>The Forbes ranking shows that the best state college in Minnesota is Morris, which is much better than the flagship.</p>
<p>Morris’ ACT range is 23-28 with 59% of the incoming students in the top quarter of their classes. So if you are looking for a public school in Minnesota, your first choice should be Morris … at least according to Forbes.</p>
<p>Learned something every day.</p>