Total.
Total.
This thread s interesting in that the convo is mostly rational. But notice that the underlying theme is still stats.
At a tippy top or top, it’s not that “SAT scores comprise only a small portion of the admission decision.” I’d say they compise only a smaller part of the admissions review differentiation. So many kids apply with top this-or-that and that’s where the rest of the app comes in. Your whole self presentation.
Now, most think that means titles and awards. They fail to distinguish between what I’ll call (just to be simple) busy work, more vol hours than someone else, some title, the use of “founder” or starting a non-profit, etc, etc. These may be the things we love our kids for, but it’s not what adcoms want to love for their college community.
Then there’s the big essay. Everyone gets that it’s important. Many fewer understand what it’s meant to convey.
High school goes by fast. Your choices matter. They show your thinking. Your thinking shows your awareness, which, in turn, shows how you reach for the right info/understanding. Or not.
And that comes through on your app. Or not. No matter whether you have a 4.0uw and top scores. It’s the pitfall in just thinking stats are the “it.” They ARE very important in one’s high school standing. As are “leadership” roles. But top colleges want to see more than how you “fit” in your own high school’s scheme, the opportunities the school creates for you.
And your app/supp, incl LoRs, are the vehicle. That’s it. Unlike teachers and admins, the college doesn’t know you.
So, it pays to pay attention to every aspect of the app process.
Likewise, “interest” is not just visiting or being on an email list. It’s more to do with your match and how you understand it. Match to what they promote and want, not just what you want. If you can’t answer a Why Us, it you write your supp in ways that seem offhand or incomplete thinking, etc, they have trouble seeing your true “interest.” If you are truly vested in this college, you know it better, right?
Yes, it’s complicated. But a goal worth having is a goal worth pursuing well. Don’t pretend that all this is a “crapshoot.” That says it’s beyond your control. And that’s not the thinking a top college wants to see. The only place it’s truly beyong your control is at the end, in committee, when institutional goals predominate- the various balances a college needs: geo and gender diversity, filling majors the right way, etc.
“Likewise, “interest” is not just visiting or being on an email list. It’s more to do with your match and how you understand it. Match to what they promote and want, not just what you want. If you can’t answer a Why Us, it you write your supp in ways that seem offhand or incomplete thinking, etc, they have trouble seeing your true “interest.” If you are truly vested in this college, you know it better, right?”
There is a name for this in the larger world - Marketing. Segment your potential customer base, tailor your offerings to what you think the customer wants, promote your product and sell, sell, sell. If you are 18 years old and have no idea how to sell yourself, then go out and hire someone who has already segmented the customer base, analyzed the needs of your particular customers, and can walk you through creating an application that fills those needs. And as most of us can glean from the world of advertising, truth is fungible in the marketing world, so exaggerate and plagiarize as necessary to get the job done. I don’t know if the top schools are trying to choose the best Marketing talent (or students with families rich enough to hire the best Marketing talent), but that is the world they have created.
Some of us are frustrated because the skills you need to get accepted at top schools (self-promotion, leadership at all costs, standing out over fitting in, etc.) don’t jibe with the way we are trying to raise children (humility, modesty, teamwork, honesty, independence, etc.). Sad for us, but really sadder for these schools which are encouraging students to make glossy brochures instead of better products, to use another business analogy. If it was just a crapshoot, I’d be fine with it. Putting all the qualified kids in a hat (with separate hats for URM’s, First Gen, etc.) and picking a class would be a better system than the one they use now.
I don’t see it as “marketing” onesself, per se.
Yes, humility, teamwork, and so on, are very important aspects to show. But it’s, “Show, not just tell.” And too many kids can only tell.
It’s really the same as going after any competitive venture.
And “qualified” is this ‘more than minimum.’ Not just stats and titles.
The glossy brochure kid isn’t it.
@roycroftmom just saw the Duke press release. The 5.7% is RD round, not total
I don’t think this is necessarily true. Different “top” schools are looking for different things. Take a look at the mission statement of a place like Kenyon or Oberlin and compare it to the mission statements at places like Lehigh or Princeton. There is a place for the humble, cooperative, quirky, team player. It might not be Harvard, but it might be Kenyon or Bard.
@gallentjill Well said and I bet you are right, but with the big recent increases in well qualified applicants leaking down from HYPSM etc. to the next tier of prestige, I worry that these schools will catch the same disease. I hope I am wrong, and that the Kenyons, Bards, Whitmans, and Grinnells will still value humility when my next three apply!
I think you’re bringing in a bit of a grudge with this:
I’ve seen the Instagram group of DS’s upcoming classmates and they honestly sound like amazing young people. I don’t agree that dishonest, dependent, immodest, selfish people (since they don’t demonstrate “humility, modesty, teamwork, honesty, independence, etc.”) fill the class of 2023 at elite schools as your post suggests.
Regarding increase in test scores and decrease in acceptance of uber-high scores at top colleges, I think it’s partly because many schools have become test mills, and the top colleges know it. Our county has 2 public schools. At one of those public schools, after a 9th grade PSAT, students are tapped as high-potential test takers. By Junior year when the actual PSAT rolls around, they have spent one class period per day for an entire year purely on test prep. They have NMF’s coming out of their ears. Are they also good students? Maybe. Maybe they are grade inflating, too. But surely this skews the test results higher than the test makers intended. And surely this random small-town public school in Mississippi is not the only one doing this.
So the scores go up, and the AO’s start taking them with a grain of salt. Which actually does make the admissions process more wholistic, cause they have to base their decisions on something other than just GPA and test scores (which pulled more weight when we older folks were hunting for colleges). So those positive attributes like honesty and such actually do come into play, and many good kids arrive on campus.
-Edited to make the quotes work…
Professionaldad - I agree with you to a point. However, now you have all of these kids who were schooled to take a test and your take is that the AO’s are on to this widespread nonsense. This may be true, but I believe they are then taking all of the kids in this great stat pool and looking at these kids more “holistically “. The students who don’t have these advantages (and that is what they are) are really not in the game.
I know folks will claim any kid can self study etc etc, but it is in no way the same thing.
@professionaldad Point taken that I am a bit salty about the admissions process, and I’ll try to change my tone.
To your point, I’m not saying the kids at the elite schools aren’t honest, modest, independent, etc. What I am trying to say (and maybe failing?) is that the admissions process at those colleges is encouraging those kids to become less independent (hiring a professional to help with applications/tests demonstrably helps admissions chances), less of a team player (starting a charity is much more impressive than volunteering for one that already does good work), less honest (exaggerate your accomplishments so you can stand out in the crowd), etc. I just think that is a poor lesson for those kids, but I know many of them will still remain honest, humble, responsible, etc. My criticism isn’t aimed at the kids, just the system that they have to navigate to go to an elite school.
Your story about the test prep for one period for an entire year is wild. In the grand scheme of life, what an incredible waste of time for those kids! Why are we as a society rewarding that? I don’t have all the answers but I hope we can figure a way to change this.
Test prep was built into my daughter’s english and math curriculum sophomore and junior year in HS. Integrated into the curriculum though, not instead of. Kids were also expected to buy a prep book and do practice tests over the summer between sophomore and junior year. Free prep sessions were held once a week before school started. That seemed fairly common in our area.
To the point of what elite schools are targeting…I think it is an important skill for students to be able to clearly articulate their strengths and accomplishments. That didn’t come very easy to our daughter who downplayed everything but she learned quickly that not only was it necessary to talk about what she had done for college apps and interviewers, but also for job hunting. The career center at her school had kids practicing their elevator spiels straight off the bat. IMO, it’s a necessary life skill to be able to strike the balance of selling yourself without coming across arrogantly.
I disagree that the admission process doesn’t promote values of altruism , honesty, and especially team work. Team work especially seemed to be something that really is being searched for, especially for engineering majors.
@RockySoil
I understand your take that the system is flawed. I agree. And the test prep for the sake of test prep is silly. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t help the kids actually succeed at the university once they get there.
@Leigh22
Totally agree. How do you identify a score due to daily test prep vs an underprivilegded kid who busted their butt against all odds to achieve the same or lesser score? Are they chucking the lesser score automatically and missing out on the true overachiever? The AO job is not easy. They are supposed to know the schools in their areas, but that’s a job I’d never want. I’d feel certain that I had missed someone deserving. I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.
When I was in high school decades ago, overt test prep was not part of normal high school courses – although it is likely that the weekly vocabulary words to learn and be quizzed on later in English courses were at least partially motivated by English teachers wanting to get students SAT scores up (the SAT verbal section at the time was mostly a vocabulary test).
Also, it was not the norm to do test prep beyond trying the sample questions in the test registration booklet. For achievement (now SAT subject) tests and AP tests, it was not typical to do much test prep beyond completing the associated course in high school.
Or (if any such exists any more) anyone who earned the same score without any test-specific prep at all?
@ucbalumnus “it was not the norm to do test prep beyond trying the sample questions in the test registration booklet. For achievement (now SAT subject) tests and AP tests, it was not typical to do much test prep beyond completing the associated course in high school.”
Totally agree with this (although in my midwest high school, I never even heard of AP classes or exams).
I still remember in the late 70s or early 80s having a friend tell me she was taking a class for the SATs and I thought she was joking because I could not imagine why anyone would “study” for that test and had never heard of such a thing. It would have been like “studying” for the Iowa tests the schools used to give in younger grades. No one in my area had heard of Stanley Kaplan or even SAT review books – we did the sample practice test in the booklet that came when you registered. And then took the exam.
A similar thing happened about 8 years ago when I heard about a “college advising service” and went to hear someone give a talk. I thought it was a joke, especially when I heard the representative saying that they started with 9th graders and by junior year it was too late. I remember telling friends and thinking it was hilarious. Cut to now when the majority of affluent families (not all) seem to get some kind of outside help for their kid’s college app. Not a 4 year expensive plan, but perhaps someone to help edit the essay or just look over the application.
I can only imagine what is next. Maybe there will be a “donor advisor” service that will advise wealthy parents of 9th graders how to strategically make legal donations over the next 4 years to increase their kids’ chances. I will laugh about it when I hear it, and then in 8 years what I think is a joke will no longer be.
Too many applications, and they need to make snap judgements based on pieces of paper, not the PERSON behind it all. Not much deliberation and afterthought.
'Yep.
If you don’t have a 1400 and a 4.0 good luck getting in places besides state universities"
Flagship State Universities are becoming just as competitive that the 1400/4.0 is not a given for admission, especially at the top 15/20 State schools. If you go on the UF, UGA or Ohio State board, you can actually find plenty of kids with similar scores not being able to get in. What used to be a match and perhaps even a safety school is no longer the case.
Lots of people do not even realize how expensive these Elite Private schools can be since the majority of them do not offer merit (aid yes, but no merit). Niece got into Duke yesterday afternoon (rejected at Harvard, Penn, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, John Hopkins, Yale, and Princeton etc) only to find out that $70K a year does not make sense vs the cushy UNC package (Instate) she received. Probably should have saved herself a lot of aggravation if the parents/kid would have done the research prior to applying. They were never willing to pay full sticker price at any of these schools, to begin with. I can’t imagine why they had to finish all these applications. The kid had close to perfect stats.
None of those schools offer merit, so not sure where they thought the merit fairies were coming from.
@got2laugh - We absolutely lived by the NPC. If it said something unrealistic for us, and if there were no guaranteed scholarships based on scores and GPA, we didn’t bother.
We didn’t quite go that far, but similar. D applied to schools we felt had a very good chance of significant merit aid. She understood that if the aid didn’t come through as expected, the school would likely come off the list. We applied to no schools that didn’t offer merit - which basically cut out the top elite schools for us. It made life much easier.