<p>dstark: "I asked an acquaintance who has worked at 2 IVYS and had a kid at Harvard which of those schools gave the best education and she said "Chicago".</p>
<p>geez, Dstark, you are not making this any easier by reminding me why he applied EA to Chicago in the first place! :)</p>
<p>Momof3,: "I think this is part of his journey, though, as his chosen field of work is going to involve some real self-sacrifice, I expect. "</p>
<p>This strikes me as being so very honest and true, and I need to honor this process as my son's choice and as part of HIS journey. Thank you for posting this. I'm so glad I get to work through the angst of my part of the journey (the hand-off and pay-up part) on CC rather than on him. It is his choice, after all; we've given him an amount of $ to spend on education (an amount, by the way, that is five times more than what my parents paid for a college education, and that will require H and I to retire later, work extra jobs, take no nice vacations, and drive the 12-year-old van a couple more years) and he gets to decide how to spend it. It requires a lot of maturity to think this through (and not just on my S's part!)</p>
<p>I also thank you for bringing up this topic, one evident is my home as well. First, I think most people underestimate their state U. (and I'm not talking about the UC's, UNC, UMich or anything in that upper echelon), sure a private or better public will give you better academics, but many kids don't even apply to their state u. because it's not on of those top schools. I think if more people looked into their state schools, they could find 1 or 2 they liked. This also brings up the point of liking your financial safety. Most kids have one of these, but they never seriously consider that they might have to attend. I agree discouraging "falling in love" with one school</p>
<p>ohio_mom
Thanks for the reply. Yes we have asked the fin aid office to take another look. But we did check our forms and they are correct. Too much house appreciation and the money is in Ds account.</p>
<p>Momof2, "It requires a lot of maturity to think this through (an not just on my son's part!)" Boy have you spoken the truth! I struggle with being a grown-up every single day!!!</p>
<p>This is a fascinating discussion especially since I posed a related question on another thread re the comparative merits of Duke vs UVA given the considerably higher costs in the case of the former.</p>
<p>But what I want to say here is something quite different. We promised our son that we would fund him for his undergrad to the very best school that he was able to get into. Fortunately, we can do it without incurring any debt. It is not that we are wealthy; we are certainly comfortable but we are also relatively frugal. In fact, it is this frugality and its corresponding effect on our savings that has, in part, resulted in our inablility to get financial aid!</p>
<p>This kid has been a self-motivated student who has excelled at everything that he has done. He has really put the effort into doing well and for us, as his parents, it is a pleasure to be able to make the investment into his education. Could we use the funds for something else? Of course we could - but that is not something that we would even contemplate. My parents - and my wife's parents - made sacrifices to ensure that we got the very best education. We could not conceive of doing any less when it comes to our children. </p>
<p>Talk about no-brainers - investing in the very best education for our children is a no-brainer, the way we look at it. I am not suggesting that an in-state college will not cut it versus a private school etc. As far as that is concerned, it would have to be looked at individually.</p>
<p>To some extent this is a question of priorities and values - and this is not intended as a knock against any other parents who choose to make a different choice.</p>
<p>"Talk about no-brainers - investing in the very best education for our children is a no-brainer, the way we look at it."</p>
<p>This is where we part company. I agree (and practice) that "investing in the very best education for our children is a no-brainer." No question from me. But I don't confuse education with school. It is, or at least should be, so much more!</p>
<p>Today, at this very moment, there is nothing more important educationally speaking for your kid going on at Yale than is happening in your own backyard. If he goes to Yale, he has a new backyard. But either way, there is so much out there beyond its gates (yours or Yale's) and with some wise planning, and not a little money, your children can access it.</p>
<p>I did not for a moment suggest that Duke was better than UVA or vice versa. In fact, the reason that I started the thread on that subject was because I wanted input as to whether the cost differential would justify Duke over UVA and the feedback that I have received is almost unanimous that UVA would be as good a choice as Duke for a fraction of the cost.</p>
<p>The best education is not a function of how much money is spent. All, I said is that we would not stint to provide our children the very best education that money can buy. If it meant sacrifices to do this, we would make those sacrifices without batting an eyelid.</p>
<p>Let me give you another example - it shows you how values tend to pass on from one generation to the next. My daughter is in process of moving to an adjoining county because the schools there are much better than where she lives. She has a very bright son - who would benefit from the educational options that this county would provide. This will cause her dislocation and expense but she does not have an iota of doubt that it is what she should do.</p>
<p>Her neighbors are surprised and befuddled that she would make the move just for this reason. They say that they certainly would not do so.</p>
<p>It is all a matter of priorities and values - and, once again, it is not a value judgement against anyone who would do it differently.</p>
<p>Only that you tied the value of the education to the cost (or quality) of the school. </p>
<p>Of course, in no case are we talking about Podunk. But if you looked over the list of alternative educational uses for $100k, you'd quickly see that the "better school" does not necessarily mean the "better education".</p>
<p>...and decided that an Ivy league education was worth the debt. My daughter worked very hard in school, participated in lots of extracurriculars (she was captain of her cheerleading squad), she was on national honor society, spanish honor society, physics honor society, played an instrument, and did extremely well in her school's science and technology program. As we were researching schools, we found that most of the universities that she was interested in offered primarily only need-based assistance. And as luck would have it, three years prior, her dear old mom who was always a single mother making a modest income, returned to school, got a law degree (graduated in 2002), and emerged making a six figure salary. Our EFC is $36k per year. </p>
<p>There was one very good first tier school that actively recruited my daughter. They paid for her to come visit and offered her full-tuition and fees, thus reducing the amount that we would have to pay to around $8k a year. I thought it was a done deal and that that's where she would be going. But as she started getting her other acceptance letters she started getting depressed because she felt like she was stuck going to the school that offered her the most money. We discussed her feelings about the school and I found out that she had some real concerns; so much so that I was afraid that she might not be able to stick it out for 4 years. So I took a serious look at how much of the tuition I could afford to pay and still pay my bills and law school loans, told her how much I would pay and left the decision up to her. In the end, she decided that she was willing to make the investment in her future and go to the Ivy league school, which was actually less than some of the other schools she got accepted to. </p>
<p>Do I recommend this course for every one? It depends on what you plan to do after college. Working in a large law firm I see every day how important your academic credentials are (I went to a top 25 school myself), but I also see how people who take on a lot of debt often get locked into choices that they may later regret, i.e. having to work in a large law firm and not being able to do public interest work. And I also see people come to the firm who went to schools that weren't the most highly regarded but they did well in those schools and you guessed it, they're making the same thing I am. I guess I say all of that to say in making the decision consider what you want to do after school, try to go to the best school that has the best fit, and where ever you end up, work as hard as you can because good grades still count for a lot no matter what school you came from. (BTW I went to an average undergrad school.)</p>
<p>I had that thought also, like is it really a reflection of where most of these kids who go to expensive schools start off in life on the socio-economic end of things. </p>
<p>Well, we'll have a mini-study right in our own house, although they do have different career goals - one chose a public university and one a private university. Each would likely have been unhappy in the other's shoes but each is very happy in their own. I have no idea how they will feel about it in ten years but I do suspect that many other factors will come into play as far as general life contentment besides how much money they each make.</p>
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<p>Optimisticdad, "All, I said is that we would not stint to provide our children the very best education that money can buy. If it meant sacrifices to do this, we would make those sacrifices without batting an eyelid."</p>
<p>I think part of the purpose of the Duke vs. UVA and Chicago vs. Berkeley threads is to try to determine whether the more expensive school REALLY offers a better education than the less, and if so, how much better. Nobody is arguing that it's not worth it to sacrifice to get the best education they can for their kid. Nobody is confusing education with, say, a kid's first car. </p>
<p>I would argue that there are levels and limits of sacrifice that vary by person. Like your daughter, I probably would move to a new county to get to better schools for my kids, if they were THAT much better, but I probably would not liquidate my house and live in a rental apartment to do so. I would work 55 hours a week and postpone retirement by five years to do get my kid the best college education, but probably not 80 hours a week or postpone it by 10. You know what I mean? So when you talk about making sacrifices, it's so relative to an individual situation it really loses meaning.</p>
<p>momof2, I hear you on the bang for the buck aspect of private versus state schools, etc. It is because we are faced with that very situation, that I sought the input of others on this forum. I don't have any preconceived ideas regarding this issue.</p>
<p>With regard to sacrifices, I certainly agree that it is a very individual decision - and as I have repeatedly said, I am not making any value judgements how others choose to approach the question of funding college expenses. Yes, it is a very relative and there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer. I merely stated how we approach this in the case of our family.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for starting this thread.</p>
<p>My experience is different in that I'm looking at paying for my own education--every penny that I don't get grants/scholarships for. I've noticed that there are a lot of kids (even the "good" ones) that are "freer" when it isn't their money. I guess it would be easier to say something along the lines of "But it's <em>only</em> $14K more, it's not fair" when it isn't YOUR $14K.</p>
<p>Of course I've also noticed that many parents would spend more money for their child's education than they would on their own (many, not all). I can see the reasons for this because the parents on this board obviously would do what they can for their children and want the best for them--whatever that may mean to them.</p>
<p>I had worried about a year ago that I would have to transfer to a well regarded school to have a chance at a career in genetics. I don't worry as much about it because it dawned on me: I am 27 years old without a high school diploma (received my GED) and only some college and I am currently making good money and am the head of my accounting department. I feel confident that if I can manage this from where I started, I can "make do" with a "lesser" school. Of course those are in quotes because I know that I'll do better than "make do" and I don't believe that these schools are "lesser".</p>
<p>I'm with ProudMomMD -- the point of bringing up Hoxby's study, by the way, was not to suggest that spending extra $$ on an education is the best way to invest that extra $$. I came across the study while looking for objective data on the benefits of attenending a more selective college. The study gave me info which leads me to believe that when the choice of the more intellectual school is right for all of the subjective reasons (fit, feel etc), the objective data works also. I want my S to come home from college talking about how challenging it all is -- about the hard problem sets, the brilliant mathematician from some far away place, the new research he's working on. If he could get that at the State U, then that's great. But for kids that are on the high end of the curve, that may not happen unless they are surrounded by other high achievers. It's not that he's brilliant -- but I don't want him to stop working. I've heard of kids who come back to visit his HS who say that college is easier. Then why bother with college?</p>
<p>" think part of the purpose of the Duke vs. UVA and Chicago vs. Berkeley threads is to try to determine whether the more expensive school REALLY offers a better education than the less, and if so, how much better. Nobody is arguing that it's not worth it to sacrifice to get the best education they can for their kid. Nobody is confusing education with, say, a kid's first car. "</p>
<p>momof2inca - my sentiments exactly
I would sell my house and live in a rental if I thought it was to only way to provide my D with a good education. The BIG question is which school and which program is worth the sacrafice and how much as opposed to other good choices. There are some sacrifices that we deem are worth it and some that we all deem are not. It helps to have a forum like this to hear various opinions.</p>
<p>Hoxby's study did not begin to ask what happens if you take that $100,000 saved and invested it in other parts of the student's education (rather than banking it, or not having it to begin with.)</p>
<p>The data are not as objective as they first seem. (Again, we are not talking about Podunks here - but honors options at the best state universities and such.)</p>
<p>optimisticdad,
I was a little mislead when I said I'm weary about taking on more debt, I'm thinking of the whole education debt , including graduate school, etc.. until she can make money,more than I have to take on debt to send her to undergraduate. However, I tend to agree with mini about education. You can be educated without ever set foot in college. There are tons of online course if you want to learn and learning does not happen in just 4 years. It's happenign throughout your life. For years, I've always live near the best public library and my kids read and read like you couldn't beleive. D loves to read because I can check out so many books at one time. Travelling is another form of education, my kids are well travelled since babies so they can be not just book smart. We live near a University now and I take them there everyweekend, they can choose any book in any subject. As for daily news, we get the New York Times against the local newspaper because it's better written so D's horizons can be broadened.(no flame here)
My family for generation also values education and not just because I'm Asian but because my grandmother is one of the few people in her time that went to college and became Principal of a French High school back when 99% of the female population was illeterate. My husband and I both have advanced degree(Phd and MS in Engineering) as people at work would say "well papered". Whenever I live, I've always choose to live in the best school district so my kids would hang around with kids who are academic minded. I've also worked with a lot of Phds from MIT, Yale, CMU, Stanford, UC Berkeley. In fact one of my ex-boss is now professor at Computer Science at Princeton and his wife used to teach at Harvard Business School. So I'm always surrounded by "well educated" or "well papered" as they would call it at work. But I don't see education in this case "school" as the end all and be all. Best yet, I don't buy into the education sink hole(lol, I should not say this out loud in CC) as some would blindly believe.</p>