Should your kids attend a well known, expensive private school at full tuition?

Parents Forum
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<p>This is copied from a daily post that I do for my friends:</p>

<p>Welcome back from Thanksgiving. I hope you all "gobbled" a lot. Today's post is based on two recent conversations that I had. The first was with a lady who has over 200K in educational loans. The second was with my Cardiologist who went to Harvard as an undergrad and had his parents pay for the tuition. Thus, he had no debt. However, he stated that if he had to do it all over again, he would have
gone to his local state university ( which was University of Maryland) because he would have gotten a free ride with his grades and SATs. In fact, he felt that most people getting into top ivy schools could have received a totally free ride elsewhere.
I completely agree! I can't fathom why anyone, unless their parents have as much money as the sharks on the show "Shark tank," would pay full tuition for almost any private school, even for schools like Columbia, MIT etc. If they can get a free ride from a very good undergraduate school elsewhere, they should take that deal. We ran the numbers for my cardiologist friend. If we saved him the total tuition paid to Harvard, he would have had enough money to buy a nice car, pay for a nice wedding and have enough left over to provide a substantial down payment on a house!
I know that this runs counter to what many people think here on College Confidential,but it is something to really consider if you have some kids who are academic stars. This concept becomes even more important for those who aren't academic all stars. They need to go to their local state university and save the money for grad school or future needs UNLESS they are overriding circumstances such as learning disabilities, special programs that aren't available in state, receipt of substantial scholarship from that expensive "dream school" etc. Obviously, this assumes that you are paying "full freight" at an expensive private school and NOT getting a very substantial scholarship. Such as scholarship would probably change my recommendation. Moreover, this discussion deals with undergraduate school only! For graduate and professional schools, I would generally recommend going to the best, most highly ranked school possible. Just something to think about.</p>

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<p>These conversations arise a few times per year here on cc. Every family’s/student’s decision as to the best choice is unique to their circumstances and aspirations. If our daughter aspired to become a cardiologist, then I suspect that we would have agreed that our state flagship (UNC-Chapel Hill) would be the right choice. However, her passion is physics and while UNC-CH has a good physics program, it pales compared to that at Harvard where she is now a senior. The funnel for advancement in physics is much narrower than for med school and going to a top undergrad program gives one a big leg up on getting into a top PhD program which is almost a minimum requirement to eventually get a faculty position. Harvard is also much better for her main EC (ballet) and has been worth the expense for our family.</p>

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<p>We have followed this philosophy for our first two (with a third as a senior this year) and wholeheartedly agree with one notable exception for professional school. After researching and speaking to many in the field, we have concluded that for medical schools (unless you are thinking of going into research), your state school is the best option financially and you will get a fine/comparable preparation to private schools. If location, atmosphere, etc… of your state medical school is not a good fit, then by all means, choose others but think carefully and decide whether those factors are worth the extra $100K++ in debt (don’t forget the compounded interest on those loans).</p>

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<p>Count me as one who disagrees. I think that private school is worth it for my kids. I pay full tuition. No scholarships. None. </p>

<p>For D1, there is no public substitute for her top school, and I think that she’s getting the best education available anywhere. She agrees. </p>

<p>I think D2 would benefit greatly from a private school also. If I had to do it again, I’d gladly pay for private school for D2 for high school too. Our public school’s budget has been decimated and I prefer not to place my faith in a public system again. </p>

<p>Besides, what’s the point of making all of this money if we can’t enjoy it.</p>

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<p>^CRDad, I think the operative words are the BEST education that you CAN afford. Many opt for the best education (which can be define as a more challenging academic institution or peers of the same mindset) but if the student is thinking of studying a subject that has low job prospect, it can be quite a burden to repay those loans. If the parents can and are willing to foot the bill, then, by all means, go for it. </p>

<p>Both of our kids are attending private schools (rank in the top 50 in US News if one cares about that) and we do appreciate everything that are offered there. Both H and I went to our state institutions (albeit in the Stone Ages) and can see the differences. I applaud you for investing in your D’s education, no better place to spend it if you have it.</p>

<p>We told all the kids that we have XX dollars set for your education, spend it however you like. So far, one took a full ride that was offered and the other took a full tuition/fees at a “higher” ranked school spending her funds on room/board, etc… Both declined “better” offers based on geographical preferences and school vibes. Choices are good.</p>

<p>citdad, H is a physicist and went to Berkeley from our state school. Many in his year in grad school were from the ivies, MIT, etc… but many were from state institutions (Colorado, Stony Brook, etc…). Everyone we knew thought that the preparation they received were good but grad school was just as hard on the ones that went to tippy top schools as everyone else.</p>

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<p>Exactly, OP. Especially since there are 30 years of solid research showing that there is no measurable difference in the education provided by high-prestige, expensive schools compared to much less expensive public schools. In spite of the mythmakers’ attempts to deify the so-called “top” schools.</p>

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<p>I wrote this beautiful long post describing how both of my kids, one of whom is an academic superstar, chose OOS state schools with some scholarship and one will be graduating in April. I type too slow and it timed out.</p>

<p>DD will graduate with a major in applied math, a minor in physics, a certificate in East Asian studies with three years of Japanese and one year of Korean language study, and about 150 credits. Like most college seniors, she is worried about finding a job.</p>

<p>Anyway, I agree with taxguy. We fall into the top income brackets because of military retirement money. We have always lived well within our means and saved more than our peers. However, our children will both graduate with no debt and if we stay on our current path, they will inherit well ( not too soon, I hope).</p>

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<p>But was this his money, or his parents’? Would they have given the money to him for other uses? We pay full rate at an expensive private, but we’ve got no plans to buy our D a house or car, nor do we wish to. She knows that her adult lifestyle will be funded on her own dime, at whatever level she aspires to. We won’t provide lifestyle support on principle.</p>

<p>Obviously no one “needs” to go to an expensive private. It is a luxury expense unless you get very good financial aid. No one needs a second home, luxury cars, a boat, club memberships, or designer bags. No one needs to live in a fancy gated community. I have no interest in any of these discretionary big-ticket expenses. On the other hand, I get a great deal of gratification from paying my D’s tuition and education-related expenses. Her undergraduate experience is my second home, my fancy cars, my vacations. It’s what I want to do with my discretionary income.</p>

<p>People who are Puritans about education expenses often have blind spots in other areas. What’s so great about a house? As we all have learned, real estate can be a lousy investment.</p>

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I couldn’t fathom either until I enrolled at Stanford. It’s quite amazing how many doors that Stanford affiliation opens compared to my undergraduate degree from a good-but-not-prestigious liberal arts college (for which I didn’t pay tuition, btw). </p>

<p>The funniest part? Many Stanford undergrads don’t even realize how lucky they are. They just assume that college students are recruited heavily everywhere…</p>

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<p>We have a good friend who can afford many HYP educations and probably then some, but the kids went to Michigan…and why not…it’s one of the best universities in the world. They still paid $30,000 a year because Michigan is expensive even for in-state, but it’s still half of what HYP would have cost and the kids got a world-class education.</p>

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<p>Perhaps paying for that elite undergrad degree will obviate the need to go to grad school. Are there any studies on that? How does a Harvard undergrad in say, Econ, fare in the business world in comparison to a state u undergrad with a state u MBA?</p>

<p>Also, I agree with NJres: I’d rather have the experience and life-long benefits of an elite college degree than buy a new car or a house a few years earlier than I will eventually.</p>

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<p>B@rium notes, “I couldn’t fathom either until I enrolled at Stanford. It’s quite amazing how many doors that Stanford affiliation opens compared to my undergraduate degree from a good-but-not-prestigious liberal arts college (for which I didn’t pay tuition, btw)”</p>

<p>Response: This may be true,but you also have no comparison as to what doors a good state university would offer. I have found that a kid with a strong GPA who either networks well and/or interviews well can get many of the top jobs available. I attended Baruch College many years ago. Baruch is part of the City University of NY and isn’t a top ranked undergrad school. However, because I could interview well and had a strong GPA, I was able to get just about any job I wanted including investment banking jobs, accounting and consulting jobs etc. There was no limit to what was available to me that I could see. Even better, I paid a LOT less than my private school counterparts.</p>

<p>Also Classicrockerdad notes, "Besides, what’s the point of making all of this money if we can’t enjoy it. "</p>

<p>Response: er… having a good, solid retirement or being able to help your kids and grandkids with the purchase of a home or business or being able to take a fabulous world cruise as part of your retirement etc. You are citing the current philosophy found in many younger kids, which is " to enjoy it now and the future be damned." I don’t subscribe to this for many financial reasons. I guess we will agree to disagree.</p>

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<p>I’ve met a surprising number of computer science majors who seem to be living in their parents’ basements. Did Carnegie Mellon make a difference for my son? I don’t know, but I *do *know that my son got recommended for his summer internship at Google through a personal recommendation from a Carnegie Mellon graduate and the previous summer got a last minute internship from networking when the internship he thought he had fell through. I certainly don’t think he would have been nearly as happy at one of the SUNYs as he was in the computer nerd rich atmosphere of CMU’s School of Computer Science.</p>

<p>We are full pay and our kids didn’t/don’t have loans. My older son could easily pay off loans from his salary at Google if he had to.</p>

<p>As for my younger son who is studying International Relations and Arabic, I’m pretty confident that he’s better off at Tufts than any of the SUNYs.</p>

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<p>We are choosing to pay (in full - no loans, FA) for our DS to attend a private liberal arts school. Not because of prestige or name, but because of the program and the size. This school was the best fit for him in so many ways. Yes, he had merit awards at other schools and he could have attended state schools for very little, but we are comfortable that this school is the right place for him.</p>

<p>This decision was not easy, and we made a significant personal sacrifice to make it happen but extremely worthwhile thus far. That said, he knows that he is on his own for grad school. I think each family must make decisions that work best for them.</p>

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<p>But in this response, you are privileging helping adult children with lifestyle purchases over paying for private schools. This is a values choice, not an economic one. Why is one better than the other? If my D needs me to pay for her housing as an adult, we are going to have way bigger problems than the amount spent on her school. Similarly, if she wants to open a business and cannot get capital except from her parents, then perhaps the business is not such a great idea. Furthermore, why do you assume that people who are paying full fare at privates have not saved for retirement? We have done so, quite aggressively in fact. We still are paying full fare. You are free to believe that we are fools because we do not spend our discretionary income the way that you would. I prefer to say, different strokes for different folks.</p>

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<p>Just a student here, so I’m not really experienced with all the financial things. But from my perspective and what I learned, if the family CAN pay for full price for a great private school, then of course the decision is on them (where the student would be happier, which environment is better for them, etc.). If they can NOT afford to pay the full price, then it usually isn’t worth going into heavy debt for. </p>

<p>Of course a good education at a normal state school can still give one great job prospects after graduation, no one said it doesn’t. No one needs a degree from an elite school to get a great job. It’s just that the doors opened are different. The opportunities and experience are different. Maybe there’s research showing that there’s not much of a measurable difference in education or salary, okay, but I still think there is a difference somewhere. You can’t say going to one or the other would be exactly the same. But no, it’s not worth going to if one cannot pay for it. That’s why financial aid is great, though I wish it’d be a lot more generous.</p>

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<p>Of the SUNYs, Stony Brook has a good reputation in CS (seems to be attractive to out-of-area recruiters at least to some extent). The others probably fall into the lesser known school category which is not actively recruited by out-of-area employers. Since it appears that the NYC area and the northeast is much more school-prestige-conscious, the others may be more likely to hold one back there than in some other parts of the country.</p>

<p>There are, of course, some rather limited CS degree programs. Some of them are at fairly well known schools like Amherst College (a student there may have to supplement his/her CS courses with those at the low-prestige state school nearby).</p>

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<p>So in evaluating the benefits it should be noted that the cardiologist already is in a high status profession. Most of the advantage of the status of his undergrad education is overshadowed by his professional reputation, so he doesnt see the advantage. Likewise he may have liked the people he went to school with, but he is hardly dependent on the alumni network professionally. </p>

<p>On the other hand if you have a degree in public policy or business degree your life experience is likely to be greatly by having it from an Ivy vs good old Directional U.</p>

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<p>taxguy,
Can you please provide details on this? Is the lady the former student, or her mother? What type of loans are they? What college was it? While I don’t doubt that some people have incurred this much debt for one undergraduate degree, I think it is probably rare and involves unusual circumstances.</p>

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<p>NJsue notes, " You are free to believe that we are fools because we do not spend our discretionary income the way that you would."</p>

<p>Response: I never said anyone is a fool or implied it. It is interesting how defensive folks get over their financial decisions. I only raised this topic as “something to think about.” My discussion is based totally on the financial merit of paying the exorbitant tuition for undergrad schooling. As I noted above, " I guess we will agree to disagree."</p>

<p>Bay, I don’t know where this lady incurred most of her debt. I do know that she is graduating from Chiropractic school with a total debt in excess of 200K. I don’t know how much of this resulted from undergraduate studies,but I got the impression that it was a substantial amount.</p>

<p>Argburgy notes,"So in evaluating the benefits it should be noted that the cardiologist already is in a high status profession. Most of the advantage of the status of his undergrad education is overshadowed by his professional reputation, so he doesnt see the advantage. Likewise he may have liked the people he went to school with, but he is hardly dependent on the alumni network professionally. "</p>

<p>Response: What you say may be true, which I also considered. However, again, most people assume that the contacts at these expensive schools will almost always overshadow that of a good state university. Although I do believe that there are slightly better contacts available at the top schools, which can result in more income opportunities, most studies have shown that this isn’t the case. Good students tend to do equally well over their lifetime regardless of the school that they attended. </p>

<p>Also as noted by some posters, students who attend top schools do seem to have a higher percentage of acceptances at top professional schools and graduate schools. Let’s face it, Harvard Law School, as an example, has an overwhelming proportion of each class who attended ivy and other top schools. However, this might well be due to their ability to do well in standardized tests and NOT necessarily result from the cache of the undergraduate school’s name.</p>

<p>Bottom line: I strongly believe that saving 200K+ in undergrad tuition per student can have a major effect on both the lives of the parents as well as that of their kids. Do I think it is “idiotic” to pay this amount of tuition when they can go for free someplace else: not necessarily so! But I do think it is something to strongly consider.</p>