It's a shame that teaching is not viewed as a "real" job.

Parents Forum
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<p>"Am I glad some teachers are educated at Harvard or Yale? - yes. But to tell a young person that going to a school where you emerge educated, but $100,000 in debt, and expect to pay it off on a high school teacher's salary with any kind of reasonable lifestyle - that would be irresponsible. "</p>

<p>The Ivies give need-based aid. The average amount of total student loan debt that Harvard students graduate with is $5 k -$15 K. Harvard expects that debt load to decrease. Source: <a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.04/01-finaid.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.04/01-finaid.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Depending on what kind of loans a student has, they may be able to reduce their loans by teaching in an low income or otherwise disadvantaged schools or who plan to specialize in certain academic areas.</p>

<p>When it comes to graduate school for people planning teaching careers, there are very nice fellowships available. Certainly a person who is smart enough to get into an Ivy or other top university for their undergraduate education would have a good chance at getting such fellowships.</p>

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<p>I am not big on money, but I find it amusing that people think a salary is okay as long as you double it through marriage. This represents the stereotype that a teachers salary is a spouses salary and so doesn't need to compare to those of a doctor or lawyer or engineer.</p>

<p>Because of the somewhat rigid salary stucture, depending on the district, some teachers will take 10 years to get near the average salary and during that time housing and other expenses will climb as well. Control of the curriculum is a bigger problem than money, and it will become a bigger problem as it begins to impact high schools.</p>

<p>Today a math major might consider teaching inspite of the salary difference, but once creativity and respect for individual talent is removed from the high school class room most qualified math talents will go to other professions.</p>

<p>spoonyj what does a house cost in Kansas. I just looked at a two bedroom condo for $300,000+ in a district that is looking for teachers who will work in the low $30,000 range. I guess our teachers have to marry doctors, lawyers or engineers. Or work a second and third job.</p>

<p>The last question a teacher asks at the end of the day shouldn't be "would you like fries with that?"</p>

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<p>I don't understand the rationale that teachers are always being compared to doctors or lawyers. Schools of education require much less work than schools of medicine or law.My husband has 20 + years experience in his highly skilled field,and his income is comparable to a public school teachers. Of course that is working full time with the only holiday between christmas and new years and working about 1 to 2 weekends a month as well. I think most families in this society have to have two incomes just to try and pay for medical coverage, transportation and shelter, including doctors and lawyers not just teachers.
Starting salary in our district with no extra responsibilities or stipends is $31,000, I would guesstimate that a two bedroom condo that was about 1500sqft + would go for perhaps $250,000 or so. Our house which is less than 1000sqft is assessed at over $300,000 but we couldn't afford to buy it until we had been in the work force for a good while, I don't think most people expect to buy a house right out of college do they?
A teacher shouldn't have to work fast food as a 2nd job unless they want to, I assume teachers are highly skilled and could find work as a tutor. We had to hire a tutor for our younger daughter as the teachers at her school weren't helping her, and the tutor was $30 an hour twice a week, and she was the most reasonable one we could find!
We have since gone to using Kumon for tutoring because $100 a month for one subject once or twice a week works better and is less expensive than an individual tutor. The districts emphasis on a substandard math program ( Connected math) has resulted in many students needing supplemental help for math. <a href="http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Mr. B,</p>

<p>Recognizing that teachers do not make as much as other professionals, I work with the assumption that a community is liveable for teachers if the combined salaries of two teachers can allow them to afford a house that is comfortably above the median home price. In Lawrence, Kansas--an artsy, highly-educated college town--two teachers making average salaries could afford a home that is nearly twice the value of the median home price of $190,000. If a family wanted to live on a single teacher's salary in Lawrence, they certainly could, but they would have to content themselves with a house just below the median home price.</p>

<p>Do I think teachers should make enough to be able to afford a modest home on a single salary? Absolutely, but this is an unrealisitc standard that can't apply in California, the state we both live in, a state with many cities where the median home price is beyond the reach of single lawyers, engineers, and doctors, not to mention teachers. The fact that two teachers cannot afford to buy a home in so many California cities strikes me as pathetic.</p>

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<p>Teaching, in my opinion is way more than a "real" job, it is one of the noblest professions one can do. I think teaching is undervalued in our society and thus opinions such as the one proferred here proliferate. </p>

<p>I do not think one needs or should attend the state school if he/she wants to teach. The way that was stated was as if one does not need to bother with a more selective college if he/she "just" wants to teach. I personally do not feel that college should be viewed as the ticket to a career. College is about becoming an educated person who eventually does enter the work force. I can't think of anyone who needs to be more educated than a teacher because, well, teachers are educating others. </p>

<p>Education is my field and I have been a teacher on the elementary school level but have also worked as a consultant doing staff development for teachers and then teaching education on both the undergraduate and graduate level. I never applied to my state college for my own education. I went to Tufts for undergraduate school and to the Harvard Graduate School of Education. </p>

<p>For certain, education is not a high paying field. I do not see how that is any relation to where you go to college. I also do not think salary is a measure of success. If you do a job you love and you do it well, and in particularly when it is in a field such as teaching that affects the lives of many others, you can be a success. </p>

<p>While teaching itself is a very important and rewarding career, sometimes those who teach, at some point, move into other aspects of the education field. Those jobs sometimes pay more (ie., administration) and sometimes not...such as in my case as an adjunct college teacher or jobs like that which I have done. I am now working in another facet of the education field but loved teaching when I did it. I just cannot or choose not to do that job having my own kids now due to the enormous hours I put into my career as a teacher which went way beyond classroom hours. </p>

<p>I wish that teaching was a more regarded and respected profession, but on the other hand, those of us who have entered that field do not do so for the recognition or the money. Neither of those things are prevalent. But the other rewards are quite positive. </p>

<p>I hope you do not view where you go to college in terms of what is necessary in order to enter this profession...but rather where you will thrive and become an educated person and where there are programs where you can explore this career field. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>MR. B ,</p>

<p>Sorry, I live in NYC so I just quoted the salaries here and the surrounding areas. In my neck of the woods they get paid over the summer, and any monies they receive teaching summer school is extra. Since you have to have your Masters for permanent certification, some teachers are even adjunts at community colleges.</p>

<p>In addition if you are teaching in areas where there are shortages (math & science) </p>

<p>there a incentives that will give you some loan forgiveness for teaching in shortage areas or where there is a great need, and other program (I know there is one with NYU where for science teachers i know a few from my daughter's H.S., you can get your masters free) There are also colleges that give reduced tuition rates for city workers (St.Johns University comes off the top of my head, because you are also eligible for scholarships if you went to a catholic undergrad school).</p>

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<p>Anyone who has a passion in their lives needs to follow that passion - to be the happiest person you can be - if you are destined to be a teacher - GO FOT IT - if you don't - you may regret it somewhere down the road - no matter where the education takes place to prepare you to be the best that you can be at your chosen profession. </p>

<p>All scholars-turned-teachers have something to give back to their students when they become a teacher - no matter where the learning took place. If you have that kind of passion - you will be a wonderful teacher - just the kind we would all want our kids to have. $$ is not the end-all in our lives - because if you are not happy in what you choose to do - it doesn't mean very much in the long run.</p>

<p>So..... if teaching is your passion - please follow your heart - others in the future will thank you for taking this road. </p>

<p>From the mom of one who teaches, is not well payed - but very happy!!!!!</p>

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<p>I am surprised that several people have said they would not encourage their kids to attend top-ranked colleges if they intend to teach. I am thrilled that my kids had some very wonderful and intellectual teachers who have attended top-ranked colleges - teaching is a very important profession and no one should feel that it is not a "real" job. It never occurred to me that every person at a highly academic school would preparing for a career in which he or she can earn a spectacular salary, in the very upper percentiles of the population. In my suburban district, teachers can make up to around $90,000, I believe. Additionally, they can teach at summer school or have other jobs in the summer, if they choose, and, and, if they have young children, will not need to pay for full time summer camps, as I did, which can be very expensive for good, enriching programs.<br>
Would those who would not want a child to attend a top-ranked school to prepare to teach give the same advice to a child who hopes to become a research scientist? I don't think so. To become a research scientist requires a Ph.D program for about 5 years, under a living-wage stipend, followed by postdoctoral work for several years, likely below the starting salary of a teacher. I am sure many research professors at colleges do not earn more than public school teachers in suburban districts.</p>

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<p>I guess I don't live in an area where teaching isn't viewed as a real job
Teaching is respected, and always needed, and is actually a fairly stable occupation.
My brother inlaw for example has two graduate degrees, had 15 plus years of experience in his field, and has fairly lengthy periods where he was not able to find any work. Despite his previous career as an auditor for several large companies and as the CFO for a regional one, he has to sell insurance to bring in any income. If he had been a teacher, I doubt if he would have had to take shares( ultimately worthless) instead of a paycheck, or been unemployed for so long.
A teaching career is very mobile, just as medical skills can be portable, teaching can be done in any state, rural or urban and any country. Teaching is not generally physically demanding, and teachers often can choose when they want to retire, many working long past the age , when those in more harsh fields have had to stop ( for example my husband who is an aircraft machinist, doesn't look like he will be able to work much past 50 and will have to find something else)A great teacher is always remembered. A big perk of teaching are students and parents coming back to visit and to see how you made a big difference on their lives. One teacher can help steer a child in the direction where they will head for their lifetime.
It is a big responsibilty but the rewards are just as great.
Even if you may feel teaching is not respected in your community, I bet teachers who make a difference and win awards are noted in area newspapers, to wide recognition.In other fields the recognition is often limited to the field/company.
Where else can you play kickball as part of your daily work or get hugs along with your morning coffee? Last year I was chair of the parent group at my daughters school, we regularly had parents involved in the classroom, furnished lunch for the teachers every wednesday, as well as raised lots of money to supplement materials and field trips.Yes all schools don't do that, it is very difficult at some schools to get parents involved. Where my daughter is at school now, an inner city public high school, many of the students are low income and their parents aren't involved in the school. But these are the students that I enjoy helping the most, they are parched for an adults attention and I can feel I am making a real difference to them.
even if you don't stay in education ( unfortunately some schools of education aren't preparing students for the classroom and they leave teaching within 5 years), the real world experience that you get, just can't be replaced with anything else</p>

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<p>people say that 33k is such a horrible salary.. pretty much the only people that make that much money at jobs around here are.. THE TEACHERS... you have to drive pretty far to get to work to make much more than that. My dad drives an hour and 15 minutes each way to get to work.</p>

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<p>guitargirl -</p>

<p>Salaries are relative. My meaning was that $33K is low enough in our town that the teachers cannot live here. When I was teaching in the South, my pay was so low that I won't even quote it here, mostly because that was a long time age. Needless to say, when I moved to the "big city" and got $10K a year (12 months salary) for teaching, it was a huge raise.</p>

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<p>As an MIT graduate (biochem) and a UMassLowell graduate school (education) alum, I will say that it's easier to get a teaching certificate from your state college than it is to get one from a private college that isn't geared toward producing the right paperwork.</p>

<p>And cheaper.</p>

<p>Many many states now require a master's degree to continue teaching after the first five years or so, which means it makes sense to get an UG degree, start teaching, then get the master's at the local state program--unless you aspire to being a district superintendent, in which case a nationally recognized private program makes sense.</p>

<p>I think most people and most teachers underestimate the value of teacher's pensions. Here in WA the pay sucks--starting at around $33K and never going much above $50K--but a teacher retiring after 30 years of service will get a pension that's the equivalent of having about $500,000 invested. How can they afford that? Well, it's paid for by the HALF of teachers who teach for less than 5 years and then quit, thereby paying in but never collecting.</p>

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<p>The salary is pretty good in my school. They make about $80K. And it is a noble profession, if you're good.</p>

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<p>Idon't know about other states, but while the NYC board of Ed, is your employer, the Principals or (AP in charge of administration, based on the recommendation of the Department chair) at a particular H.S. are the hiring managers. So when a teacher is hired that prinipal is looking at a resume the same way an employer in corporate life is looking at a resume and wants the best qualified canididate for the job.</p>

<p>At some of the "better" public schools in the city (high performing, specialized high schools, top performing elementary and middle school and high schools where
PTA's raise hudreds of thousands of dollars and teacher don't have to purchase supplies out of their own pockets) those spots are pretty coveted and teachers easily spend their entire careers there, principals are most likely to pick teacher who have graduated from "better schools". </p>

<p>I know when my daughter was in elementary school, the principal was a "Bank Street " person, because the Bank Street School of education focused on collaborative education which was in line with the schools philosophy. So when a new teacher need to be hired, the prinicipal usually hired a student teaher from bank street who recieved a favorable evaluation from the cooperating teacher who were also master teachers, who taught other teachers.</p>

<p>At my daughter's high school the chair of the English department has a Phd form Teachers College - Columbia Univervisty and teaches English teachers. So when a there is a vacancy, she recommends a teachers college person. At the high school they have many graduates, from Cornell, Brown, harvard, Princeton, NYU, U of Chicago,
Gerogretown, Wesleyan, Columbia, Barnard,Northwestern, etc.</p>

<p>What they have found that teachers pass on the good habits which they have learned. Teachers who are alums of specific colleges have maintained realtionships with their schools are also very amenable to writing recommendations for seniors who apply to those schools. They end up giving back inside and outside of the classroom</p>

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<p>My mother teaches and read this board and said that worse than the pay is the lack of respect. She has parents come in and chew her out demanding that she change a grade. Can you imagine if people yelled at doctors the way they yell at teachers. Come in and demand a new disease because this one isn't fair or good enough or the dr. just doesn't like them? My mom gets claims like that for papers all the time. She comes early and stays late and without a doubt she has a real job.</p>

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<p>In our district parents students and teachers are also on hiring committee. actually at the schools I have been involved with, the hiring commitee makes the recommendation and the principal rubberstamps it unless it is way off base.
In looking through resumes, virtually all were graduates of in state colleges. The ones that were not, and had more experience than the hiring commitee were turned down despite several members of the hiring commitee supporting them. ( I had the impression they didn't want teachers with greater energy and experience, to potentially take over their dept, sadly)
Years in district is also very important. For example in the spring budgets are written for the next year, the school may not know until fall what their enrollment is and hence how many teachers of a certain level they will be able to have. District wide if you get bumped from your school, you can bump someone else at a different school if you have more seniority. The schools have lost many good teachers this way. Several teachers who needed to know if they had a job in the fall, were forced to go to other districts, ironically in the fall, the spaces opened up and the school had to do bottom of barrel hiring with applicants that hadn't found a job by October.
With NCLB we have had to lose some applicants that didn't have certification in the area that they would be teaching. ( for some reason social studies and history are two different certifications, a much needed teacher had one, but we needed the other- so the kids had a sub for the first two months of school)
I have heard a lot about Bank Street it is pretty well known even here in WA. I won't tell you the public university that most of the applicants that I saw graduated from, but their resumes anyway were pretty sad, which didn't even get them an interview.</p>

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<p>Move to Long Island. Good teachers there make 100K+; so do bad ones.</p>

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<p>The starting pay for a new teacher with a bachelors degree in my area is $42K/yr. Not too shabby for working 36 weeks a year. Oh yeah, in addition to great benefits and a great pension plan teachers do not pay any social security taxes which means a non-teacher would have to earn $45K to take home just as much. And if you factor in the difference in work days per year, 180 vs. 240, a new teacher makes an equivalent of $55K/yr. Teachers are not underpaid. Anybody that says so is either full of hooey, or a teacher.</p>

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<p>Yalebound, I don't know where you got the pay scale in Long Island, yahoo's salary indicator lists a range of mid 30's to high $70,000. The upper scale is probably indicative of a senior teacher with a doctorate. </p>

<p>These high salaries and exorbidant benefits would explain why there are never any teacher shortages. Except there are teacher shortages in most of the country, which would indicate to most economists that the package needs to be improved (and that you may have overinflated their values in your post). </p>

<p>Once again, I think the down fall for the profession is the loss of control of the curriculum which is a matter of respect.</p>

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<p>I certainly think teaching is a "real" job. I also think it is one of the most noble professions one can enter. I also believe there are far too few excellent teachers,and I would love to see more.</p>

<p>I wanted to be a teacher initially. Went to a school without an education department, started to take some education courses, but at my college, it was considered laughable to become a teacher. A professor, yes, a teacher, no. I am sorry to say that it did influence my thinking, and kind of put me into a tailspin for years, as I did not know what to do. I now tutor, something I've really done for nearly 40 years--I started as a middle schooler for a quarter a session, and it it a field that I enjoy and am good at doing. Few people I know can say that about their careers. </p>

<p>The teachers at my sons' school tend to come from the highly selective schools. My son's advisor is a Radcliffe undergrad, Yale grad. Her life has been teaching. Many of the independent schools have teachers like that. The public schools are a different story. In most of the desireable school districts where I have lived, the teachers tended to come from the state systems, with certification being the big issue. If you want to teach at a public school that is safe and highly rated, it increases your odds of finding a job if you do come from the state program. Contrary to popular belief, it is very tough to find a teaching career--not a job, but a career. A career tends to be at a desirable school, and there are many more applicants than spots at such districts. The shortages are in the inner city, backwater places, problem places, places that do not pay well. As for underpaid, the Radcliffe/Yale teacher who has been there for a long time does not make $30K a year salary. Private schools do not tend to pay much. The Catholic school where my little guys go has some of the highest salaries in the diocese, and we are talking a max of about $45K with a starting pay of about $30K. Other parochial school pay an average of $20K, so, indeed, these such teachers are underpaid. The public school is a different story, which is why if you want to make a living wage, that is the route to go. It also helps to have a specialty that you can contribute--ECs or coaching, special ed training to get these jobs. </p>

<p>I would not hesitate to pay an additional $100k a year out of pocket for my kids to have excellent teachers. As it is, I pay more for tuition, and next year will be paying even more, than for any other single expense in our lives. Ironically it corresponds nearly exactly to what I bring in as a tutor, college helper. All of my kids are in private schools, and the highschoolers go through a lot of trouble to get to school and back, but it is worth it for us that they get the best option for them. The most important think in that equation is a good teacher.</p>