It's all about the teacher?

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hey all...</p>

<p>I've been following these boards for some time now and have a question...</p>

<p>My son (just entering his senior year in HS) is hoping to go to college for Vocal Performance. He's has 9 years of private instruction, all All State Choirs, Chamber Choir, Church Choir and years of local community theater. He's also a pretty strong student (Class Rank, GPA and SAT wise) so I think we're looking for a good University experience more than a conservitory.</p>

<p>His vocal coach is very good... has sung all over the world in operas and has now been teaching for a number of years. He's all about Vocal health and their is much repertoire that he won't even let my son begin to attempt as he believes a young voice is not ready for it.</p>

<p>While very knowledgeable about the industry, he's not overly up on schools nationally though he's very familiar with the local (connecticut) educators having worked with the local college programs.</p>

<p>I repeatedly hear on these forums that it's all about the teacher, and I have mixed thoughts on that one, but what I don't understand is exactly how one is supposed to research them? The colleges typically list the faculty but how does one do their homework? Do colleges actually tell you "if your son were to go here, this would be his teacher"? Do you get sample lessons with all of the staff and hope you like them all? I assume you get assigned an instructor when you get to the school, you don't get to hand pick them?</p>

<p>Along the same lines, I have also heard mentioned that a good indicator of a program is what masters programs their graduating students have been accepted into. How does one go about finding this information out?</p>

<p>If "rankings" mean nothing with music schools, and just because a school is good for Flute doesn't mean they have a good faculty for Voice, how exactly does a naive (music education wise) parent and prospective student do their homework?</p>

<p>While I'm on the topic, Does anyone know anything about the vocal performance faculty at FSU? We toured the school last winter and my son loved it. We got the idea to tour FSU after my son had an opportunity to work with Dr. Andre Thomas from FSU at an All State Choir and he was captivated by him. But he's part of the Choral Program, not Performance.</p>

<p>Any information would be helpful... just a little lost here.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

2

<p>Wow! So many great questions which show that you are on your way to becoming a very well informed parent of a student musician. I’ll throw in my two cents.</p>

<p>It’s all about the teacher and how to tell if the teacher is a good fit: Schedule a private lesson. Your son will be able to tell after a few lessons whether or not he feels comfortable with a teacher. My son absolutely loved some of the teachers and found 1 teacher that made him feel that he would quit in the first semester of college if he went there. </p>

<p>To find out if the particular teacher is successfully sending students on to grad school or the professional world, you can ask them during the private lesson. Also, try googling the teachers name along with the words “studied with”, “student of” or some combination of them. </p>

<p>We didn’t just go by the “its all about the teacher” rule though. Since son was primarily interested in music ed, he did place a great emphasis on the strength of the music ed departments (and their alumni network) and sat in on some of the music ed classes to see if it was a fit. </p>

<p>If your son is primarily interested in performance, then he should try to go to the highest peer quality institution to which he is admitted, can afford and likes the teacher since musicianship is developed through listening and future jobs through networking.</p>

3

<p>Teacher Placement: When and how a student is assigned to a particular teacher varies from school to school. In many cases, the acceptance in March or April will indicate which teacher the student has been assigned to. At the other extreme, some schools like Indiana University only provide teacher placements after the students arrive in the fall. Some middle-ground schools will provide assignments if requested (or pushed!). They understand that it can be difficult to commit to a school without knowing the teaching placement. In some cases, even the the school will not communicate the placement until fall, individual studio teachers will. I suspect that a school could easily override what a studio teacher says, but I have not heard of any such instances (although I’m sure it does happen in rare circumstances).</p>

<p>Beware that even if you get the teacher you want, teachers often retire, take sabbaticals, transfer to other schools, die, or return to performing full-time. I have heard of all these things happening frequently. So it is best to choose a school that has one or two excellent backups!</p>

<p>Sample Lessons: An important part of your research will involve getting sample lessons with as many teachers as possible. For close schools try to schedule them as soon as possible (well before applications are due). For schools that are a couple of thousand dollars away, schedule them when they will work; my son had a couple of lessons either a day or two before or after the audition.</p>

<p>At the sample lesson, spend at least 10 minutes near the end asking some direct questions: a) Am I in the ballpark for this school? or other wordings: Should I apply to this school? Do you think this school would be a good fit for me? b) Am I in the ballpark for your studio? c) What do I need to work on in order to have the best audition possible? d) What other schools would you recommend for me? e) What teachers would you recommend?</p>

<p>Some teachers will probably not recommend other schools or teachers (due to lack of knowledge, due to a feeling it might be inappropriate, or due professional rivalry/jealousy), but most will try to be as helpful as they can. Almost all teachers will be willing to give you an idea as to whether their school is appropriate, but you need to be careful as to how you ask the questions: do not ask, “What are my chances for admission here?” That is a difficult and awkward question for a teacher to answer directly because they usually will not know the answer until after they hear the auditions for your year. </p>

<p>While some on this board recommend that your child handle all of these questions, I think that, given the delicacy of how the questions are worded and the nuances in the teacher’s responses that must be interpretted, it would be appropriate for the parent to be around for this. Before the lesson begins, I would recommend asking if it would be okay for you as a parent to show up in about 50 minutes to ask some questions.</p>

<p>Ask your son’s vocal coach to recommend a couple of college teachers that are in driving distance who would have a good knowledge of the college scene. It would be best if these teachers were at institutions to which your son will not apply. I would make it clear to the teachers that you are looking for their advice in preparing for auditions and in choosing schools, and that your son will not be applying to their school. Certainly you should pay for these lessons, but if they help you select appropriate schools, then the money is well-spent.</p>

<p>The best teacher research is having a lesson. The world’s best teacher will not have a good fit with every student. Some voice teachers are masters of metaphor and this works well with many students, but some students benefit more from a technical physiological explanation that completely loses others. Some students need constant positive reinforcement and affirmation with the criticism they receive. Others can take instruction without the sweeteners. Some benefit from the strictness/firmness that renders others nervous blobs.</p>

<p>If there are particular schools that your son is interested in, send a private message (pm) to others on College Confidential that have children at these schools. They can give you insight into the teachers at the schools (what their teaching styles are, how in demand they are, if they are close to retirement, their strengths and weaknesses). Everyone to whom I have ever sent a pm has been very helpful. Even when we chose not to apply to certain schools, the teacher information from the pm’s has been useful in choosing summer programs.</p>

<p>A further way to research teachers: contact the music department and ask if they could put you in touch with a couple of their vocal majors by email. While my son never did this, I have heard of others that have done it with varying degrees of success. My son contacted friends at a couple of schools and asked them for emails of students that were in particular studios in which he was interested.</p>

4

<p>MrFritz99, welcome to the club of those of us who had no clue when started this process. Here is a relatively recent thread with some suggestions for doing the research. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/1111209-voice-majors-things-consider.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/1111209-voice-majors-things-consider.html&lt;/a&gt; We stumbled through by reading these threads, talking to everyone we could and getting advice from the generous folks here on CC. Most will respond if you PM them with questions. There is so much out there that if he starts to narrow the places that interest him, then the other questions are easier to address. </p>

<p>There is no such thing as only one teacher out there, so you don’t have to worry about finding and getting accepted into only one program. Let his voice teacher focus on preparing him with great audition material. They should be able to prepare a sufficient repertoire to get through almost any audition. Then you and your S can start on narrowing down the criteria for the schools that interest him. Start your spreadsheet and have fun. It is a really special time. </p>

<p>Once thing we did that I had not really appreciated the significance of at the time was to do a rolling admission relative safety early in the process to get the audition legs under her. An early acceptance before Christmas with money was a great confidence booster and she knew she could go somewhere that was OK, even if not the very best teacher. She did not choose the school and teacher until after acceptances were in and then she did her sample lessons. </p>

<p>Some schools admit you straight into a studio and some assign them after you are enrolled. It is one of the things to make sure you understand for each of your target schools.</p>

5

<p>You can find out a heck of a lot about people just by doing some research on the web. I think this site prohibits referring people to competing college info sites, but with a google search you can discover a heck of a lot.</p>

<p>There is at least two sites where students can rate their professors. This may give you some insight into how students feel about the teachers. You can also look up the teachers on the colleges websites and then do a web search on them. Most of the time you can find a bio on each teacher. Some schools may occasionally post info about students, and you can sometimes find student email addresses that you could use to email students.</p>

<p>Even social networking sites can provide a heck of a lot of info. Most colleges will have some sort of group page on social networking sites. They might not be easy to find, but I will assure you they are there. You could startout on a social networking site by simply putting in the name of a college with the word “music” or “trumpet” (or whatever).</p>

<p>Some professors will actually have a site, or at least a mini-site of their own. My son’s trumpet professor provides a ton of info on his mini-site. His own bio, a roster of students, sylibus, a list of items required and a list of items recommended, and a page of links to related subjects. He also goes into detail how he grades (very complicated) and what is expected of students at each level.</p>

<p>On a social networking site I found announcements of what graduate schools students had been accepted to.</p>

<p>And of course just talking to the professors and students is probably your best bet. We didn’t have the opportunity to do any official visits, but my son did meet the studio professor for his studio at three of the four colleges he auditioned at, and in all three cases he had the opportunity to speak with them either before or after his audition. One even ate lunch with us.</p>

<p>Sometimes a high school music teacher or a private music teacher can fill you in on who is good and who is great.</p>

<p>Then don’t overlook the years and years of posts here. It will take some time, but there is a heck of a lot of info on CC.</p>

6

<p>Violin dad’s post was wonderful and mirrors much of what I believe. </p>

<p>As I noted on another thread about rankings and such, the right teacher is very much something unique to the student and teacher, what works for one student might not work for another. A ‘great teacher’ is usually someone who has demonstrated that they can teach students, have had the students go on to be successful musicians/teachers in their own right, and so forth. However, you still have to find the great teacher that will work for the student, which takes a lot of work and has no guarantees (sometimes current teachers can recommend teachers they know, for example, but often it takes doing research, looking at what the teacher has done themselves, their training, and then hopefully trying to work with them in a sample lesson to see what they are like.). One of the advantages of things like summer festivals and pre college programs is that students often get a chance to see some of these ‘great teachers’, by attending master classes or by being coached by them or taught by them. Reputation can be a good thing, especially if it is coming from people knowledgeable about the music world, but keep in mind that reputation can be based on what someone themselves have done, not what they are as a teacher (put it this way, there are some well known teacher in the instrumental world who had been great performers, who as teachers can’t teach, there are people who never made it as a performer who are great teachers). </p>

<p>I do want to add a caveat to the ‘teacher is everythng’, and that the program itself can be important. Besides some things that routinely come up (facilities, practice rooms, dorms, etc) there is the very real issue that music is generally a program, there is a lot more to it then private lessons with the teacher. For example, a program that brings in performers and teachers to do master classes can be valuable; a strong chamber program, where they have top notch coaches and emphasize it can be important IMO (instrumental); for voice students, does the school emphasize undergraduate students and give them performing opportunities, or do they focus on the grad program? And how about the general level of the program? If the students are generally high level, that can push students to do better, to push themselves, but what if the rest of the program is uneven, will playing in orchestras and ensembles with students who aren’t so motivated be worth much? How about requirements in ear training and music theory…you get my drift.</p>

<p>What it really will come down to as far as I can tell is a combination of factors, each with its own particularly weighting system, so teacher might rate for 60% of the total score with everything else 40%, but a strong teacher with a weak program might ‘score’ out to be less then a less well known teacher within a strong program…(those numbers are hypothetical, there is no scientific weighing system).</p>

<p>In the end, it comes down to finding the program that seems best to address the students needs and like anything else, it can be a compromise. Kids could get into Juilliard, for example, but find that while the program is strong, that the teacher they are able to get isn’t as good for them as they might be. In the end it comes down to the place a student can afford to go to, and then from there going on their gut feelings in terms of where to go.</p>

7

<p>You can find the bios of successful recently graduated students on YAP (Young Artist Program) web sites(example:. [LA</a> Opera - Domingo-Thornton Young Artist Program](<a href=“http://www.laopera.com/yap/past.aspx]LA”>http://www.laopera.com/yap/past.aspx) ) They will either list the school or you can google the singers name and search for their school. Then call the school and ask directly.<br>
Again, I will parrot what musicprnt says: affordability is important. Lucky for you, male voices are in demand and that may mean more scholarship offers.</p>

8

<p>As Singersmom recommended, try some early and/or rolling admissions programs. Since you are in Ct, look into the Hartt school (University of Hartford). If you get all your materials in: app, recommendations and transcripts by Nov 1, you can audition for free in December and have an answer by Christmas. Hartt’s overall numbers when son auditioned were about a 50% acceptance rate but they didn’t break it out by studio. Another early program is Baldwin Wallace in Ohio near Cleveland. You can audition there in early November and know by early December. You could combine it with a visit to Oberlin, or CIM. One caveat for voice majors is that BW’s printed literature states a 20% acceptance rate for voice majors (67% for instrumentalists) and it’s hard to start out with a rejection at the beginning of the audition season.</p>

9

<p>Wow… thanks to everyone for the multiple and quick responses!</p>

<p>As for specific teachers, the fact that they do retire/change jobs/etc. is why I’m hesitant to place too much emphasis on it. </p>

<p>My son said to me just last night as we are mulling over the spread sheet “you know, I’m getting lost in all this. How am I supposed to do good research on schools if I’m not 100% sure on what major I want”. He’s always had it in his head to perform, so naturally assumed he’d be a performance major. But he also has thoughts of one day teaching or producing etc… My reply was that this is why the schools I was encouraging him to look into seemed to have good strong music “programs”. I told him to audition for the most selective major he may want and as he gained more understanding of himself and the industry once in college, it would give him options to move. This is also the reason that I have been rather encouraging him not to look into conservatories for his undergrad as I felt it limited his options (other than a conservatory within a university). If he ended up continuing with performance then the conservatory would be the place to get his masters.</p>

<p>Momofbassist mentioned Hartt which I didn’t know had such an early audition available. We plan to visit up there over the summer, so that would work well. We plan to visit Oberlin, BU, Peabody Institute, North Carolina School of the Arts and Frost at UMiami. There are a number of other school we’ve already seen, but he really fell in love with FSU. When we went, I had no idea about this whole “getting a sample lesson” thing and I sure wish we did. But from an overall feel/fit he was very comfortable there. They also seem to have a real strong music ed. dept which is good.</p>

<p>As we begin the audition process, it will also be interesting to see how he stacks up in these very competitive programs. He’s a tenor with a huge range and a very mature note for his age. He’s also done a lot of performing and is very comfortable on stage, so he should have good “presence” as well. He always stands out with his peers and others in local programs, but now he’s going to be up against nothing but standouts! Going to be very interesting indeed.</p>

<p>As someone else mentioned… None of these schools are cheep either! It’s unreal what the cost of a middle tear school has gotten to today. I assume there would be more scholarship opportunity at the private schools as opposed to a state school, but FSU also looks like a pretty cost effective education being that their music program as a whole seems to get fairly decent remarks.</p>

<p>Ok… task for the weekend… add “studied with” etc to our google searches… then onward and upward!</p>

10

<p>One note from the last post, if your son would think of teaching, you don’t necessarily have to study teaching unless someone is planning to teach in a K-12 environment, generally a public school. Most private teachers on instruments do not have any teaching credentials, most of them IME have performance degrees or performing backgrounds.</p>

11

<p>I did know that most private teachers are performers not educators, however, what is required at the college level for teaching? Is a PHD mandatory? I’d assume that the degree would be in Music Theory or the like, not education?</p>

12

<p>Mr F-</p>

<p>Some private teachers might have Ed degrees, since teachers in public schools often teach privately, but an education degree is not required to teach privately or generally in private schools (sure there is some exceptions there, but in my experience)</p>

<p>As far as the college level goes, it depends on what you are talking about in music. If you are talking musicology (the study of music) then a Phd is probably required, since that is more academic then performance based. When it comes to instrumental teachers or voice teachers at the college level, many might have masters degrees in performance, some have PHd’s in performance, but it isn’t required as it generally is in ‘the academic world’. In music performance programs there could be teachers with PHds who teach things l like music theory and ear training and such, but again, even there it isn’t a hard requirement from what I know.Plenty of instrumental and voice teachers have whatever bachelors they got, just look at the people on the faculty for instrumental performance at places like Juilliard and NEC as examples:)</p>

13

<p>A PhD is preferred, but not mandentory. </p>

<p>My sons applied music teacher does not have a PhD and very bluntly told us that he would never get one. He explained that PhD’s are for academics and not for performers and that he was a performer. He went on to explain that my son would have plenty of academic classes taught by PhD’s.</p>

<p>In a way it was kind of shocking to hear that, but when looking at the big picture, it makes a lot of sense. When trying to learn how to perform music, what difference does it matter if the teacher wrote a dissertation or not? All that really matters is that the teacher can teach, can listen, can demonstrate, and is an “expert” at your particular instrument.</p>

<p>When it comes to higher level theory or history classes, obviously the Doctorate degree becomes of more importance.</p>

<p>Having lots of PhD’s is generally more of a prestige thing for the school than it is as a consideration for the student. My father had a PhD and unintentially became a hired gun for several colleges who were undergoing accredition. Apparently the colleges got extra “points” for having a high ratio of PhD’s. After they were re-accredited, they would fire a slew of PhD’s and replace them with lower paid Masters degreed teachers. It sucked having to move every couple of years.</p>

14

<p>The terminal degree in music performance is the DMA, not the PhD, which is the degree music theorists and musicologists pursue. Most DMA programs include intensive studies in performance, pedagogy, and literature.</p>

15

<p>Lorelei is correct, I was using Phd loosely to mean doctorate, but in performance it is a different degree then a Phd as she pointed out. In any event, a Dma is not required for teaching, though obviously it isn’t going to hurt, either.</p>

16

<p>At many state universities, a terminal degree (highest achievable in the field, in music performance this would be the DMA) is required for a tenure track appointment…no matter how much performance experience someone has. This can be bypassed at some schools, but at many (if not most) it cannot.</p>

17

<p>Most college studio teaching job openings these days either require the DMA outright or highly suggest it (though sometimes there are exceptions for either superlative performance resumes or for those who are ABD in a terminal program). This may be less true at standalone conservatories, though those jobs aren’t advertised very often.</p>

18

<p>That is interesting, about requiring the DMA for positions. I did a brief look see at schools of music, both within a university and stand alone conservatories, and for current staff there are some with DMA’s, but a large number have MM’s or even bachelors (the ones with bachelors were ones who appear to have been performers who came on later). This could reflect the fact that requiring a DMA is a relatively new phenomenon, I was surprised to hear they were asking for DMA’s for performance in music. Musicologists and music theory heavily are doctorate level.</p>

19

<p>Take note of what their faculty positions are. It is the tenure track faculty who are required to have the DMA. Other faculty may be there as Artist in Residence, Teacher of this/that, etc., and their experience may be their credential But those who are listed as Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, or Professor will be the tenure track faculty. If a university has financial problems, the tenured faculty will be kept, but the others will be vulnerable. And the others, not tenured, are on yearly contracts, not necessarily renewed. </p>

<p>I know personally several teachers who were hired at universities, had not yet finished their DMA requirements. They were hired as Instructors. After they finished their DMA’s, they moved to Assistant Professor, which means they are tenure track, and have to be tenured within a certain period of time (5-6 year) or they will be given terminal contracts. The time they spent as Instructors did not count toward their 5-6 years. At most of the schools involved there are no exceptions for extensive performance experience, and several faculty members have served for a number of years without a ranked position. </p>

<p>Music theory and music history/musicologists are academic areas. There may be older members of the faculty who came through evaluations before the doctorate was required. In other instances, there may be members of the theory faculty who are principally composers, and a strong national/international reputation serves in the same way extensive performance experience may. For composition (and conducting), the DMA is the usual degree. </p>

<p>Music faculty has to be evaluated for tenure by university officials who are not part of the arts faculty, and degrees speak to them. Whole state systems have this requirement in their faculty handbooks. It is a bureaucratic process. This is never an issue at conservatories.</p>

20

<p>Lorelei-
Thanks for the explanation and what you wrote does explain some of the mystery, in terms of being tenured faculty versus being instructors and such. When I looked at the schools (I used U Mich, for example, being a large state school) they list the faculty, and I was assuming they were all equal, but I can see what you mean about tenured faculty versus being non tenure track instructor. In performance, it seems like a lot of the people are teachers/instructors rather then tenure track, which explains why they don’t have DMA’s…</p>

<p>In any event, thanks, it is eye opening. Sadly, a lot of schools, academic and not, are moving away from tenure track, a lot of the people teaching in colleges these days are adjuncts or simply instructors, who often teach at multiple schools as gypsies, many don’t even have offices and such. It is a lot cheaper for the schools, since they basically get taught for each course they teach, but it makes me wonder about how good such programs will become…(on the other hand, it could be argued that having people there to teach may be better then the ‘great professors’ who want to spend all their time on research and writing and either teach little or are horrible:).</p>