Ivy Alumni and Current Ivy Parents: What's the Real Deal on Class Size and T.A.s?

Parents Forum
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<p>Monydad:</p>

<p>You make lots of very good points. I would assume that at the LACs that draw from the same pool of applicants as the top universities, the students, and their willingness to engage in serious in-class discussion is the same as at the top universities. One must be careful comparing like with like, in this case the students rather than the institutions.
Regarding the university experience vs. LACs, at many universities, the large lecture classes can happen in any year. For example, had my S chosen to fulfill his Moral Reasoning requirement during his senior year by taking Michael Sandel's course, he would have been in a class of 1000 (current cap). In his freshman year, however, he had a freshman seminar (capped at 12), Expos (capped at 15) and other classes that ranged in size from 20 to 100+. Last year, he had classes that ranged from 5 to 277; this year, his classes are likely to range from 10 (2) to 100 (the other 2).
I don't know if Hanna experienced the same range of class sizes after transferring.
What I did not like about my S's CA experience was not that he was "not good enough" but that he had to fit the CA work into his regular schedule. The section, in particular, had to be held on a certain day, which followed and preceded two days of many classes. So while S did a great job grading and commenting on problem sets (the students commended him for that), he did not have time to prepare for the mini lectures (extensions of the prof's lectures) he was supposed to deliver. This may not be different for the graduate students in math and science who are supposed to start TFing in their first year of graduate studies. In the humanities and social sciences, TFs are supposed to have taken their Generals and thus no longer having to attend classes. Their schedules are thus more flexible.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Is the practice of undergrad TFs/TAs/CAs becoming more popular?</p>

<p>I would be interested in more info from forum participants about this.

[/quote]
Don't know how popular the practice is. I can only describe how it works at S's alma mater, a LAC (Harvey Mudd College). No official TAs. But the school sponsors "Academic Excellence" sessions which meet at pre-assigned times every week. These are basically guided study sessions in the core subjects to review homework assignments (problem sets) and prepare for tests (all students are required to take the same core courses). AE tutors are paid and are all upperclassmen who have taken the core themselves. The positions are competitive, i.e., students are invited by faculty to apply and go through a formal interview process. AE is meant to supplement the coursework, not replace it. Students attend AE voluntarily however many times they wish for whatever they want help with, from a single question to a minitutorial. Tutors meet regularly under the supervision of faculty and parse the coursework among themselves, with each "specializing" in different sections of the core course. Of course, all profs are still available by regular office hours or appt.</p>

<p>My impression is that it works well. New frosh who might be hesitant to approach a prof cold may be less hesitant to approach a knowledgeable peer who "knows the ropes." Also, the core can be unforgiving; the courses generally assume a beginning knowledge of AP 5 in the subject. AE helps level the playing field for students whose academic background or HS resources may not have been as strong as others. </p>

<p>There are also "grutors," upperclassmen who grade labs and tutor higher-level academic subjects (e.g., p-chem). These are paid positions, but I don't think they're necessarily tied to work-study (for which there are other, nonacademic jobs on campus). The AE and grutor positions do indeed provide good experience for the tutors, allowing them an opportunity to get their feet wet in teaching, leadership, and peer mentoring--a definite benefit for students aiming to attend grad school. I know that when my S was a new frosh he attended the AE sessions religiously, both as a way to help in subjects that weren't his natural strong suit and to reinforce what he'd learned in the classroom or reading. He was never one to shy away from e-mailing or setting an appointment with a prof, either.</p>

<p>AE also provides an additional mechanism for feedback to the profs. When the profs in one subject area made homework assignments optional, the subsequent drop in AE attendance with concomitant drop in test scores convinced the profs to reinstate mandatory homework.</p>

<p>Back to the topic of this thread. S is starting grad school at Stanford this fall--not an Ivy, but for purposes of this discussion "Ivy-like" enough perhaps. Stanford uses UG TAs, though how and to what extent I don't know. He will be an RA but IIRC will be required by his program to TA at least one course during his time there (likely third year). TAs are a fact of life in the sciences and engineering at the research unis; but with acceptance rates in the single digits for many disciplines at top schools like the ones in the OP, chances are pretty good those TAs are the best among their peers, as judged by the faculty. You can often find out about the TAs by checking a prof's research group webpage.</p>

<p>Marite, you asked some awfully good questions in post #154.</p>

183

<p>For anyone considering a career as a faculty member ....
D's friend just began his first faculty appointment at Oberlin. Their requirements for considering new faculty (freshly minted PhD's) were the following:
Have led their own class,including syllabus and grading...not just TA'ing,in addition to TAing.Grad students accomplish this through their home institution or adjuncting at a nearby community college.
Being published,or submitting material for review for publication
Showing evidence of having been of service to their Graduate Institution (committee service,etc)
This is a Humanities position.
Graduate TA'ing is just the first step in the process,it seems.</p>

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<p>Marite...you are so right that this is a lot of extra work for the undergrad TA on top of their own classes and homework. My D who is a TA also had to be selected. She never realized until she started that it was for pay, so that is a big bonus but obviously not why she wanted to do it. But she must attend the classes (and it did mean one class she was interested in for herself conflicted and so she is not taking that class this semester), leading and attending two sessions, going to the weekly meeting with the professor and other TAs, and any prep work. She obviously has her own classes to also take. She happened to also apply to do an Honors Thesis and got selected for that and that does count as a course at least of her own. But she also is an advisor to freshman (that had an entire application process), tour guide (also must apply), student leader for her undergraduate major concentration (had to apply), and on a varsity sports team requiring 8 practices per week during the off season, and two half days midweek and the entire weekend in season. I don't know how she is fitting in GRE prep, applications/essays, and creation of a portfolio to get into graduate school which she also has to do in the next 2-3 months. So, being a TA as an undergrad is extra work. She obviously wanted to do it. She is not trying to become a teacher but has always enjoyed teaching/leading/helping roles she has had. She also has taken this course in the past, so none of the material is new for her. The kind of grad school she is applying to is professional and not to become a college professor or teach.</p>

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<p>1) I'd agree with everything monydad said in that last long response, although I'd add that at a school like Brown where there is an open curriculum and everyone in every class is there because they chose to be, there is reason to believe students would be more engaged and invested in what they're doing and I don't think you'd be wrong to say that.
2) My experience is that undergraduate TAs, used appropriately (and I haven't run across inappropriate use yet) is a very powerful and helpful teach tool.
3)My experience having made a ton of money in high school and in college tutoring is that there is NOTHING that teaches you more then having to teach the material to someone else. The most enriching learning experiences I've ever had have been teaching experiences, and while I've not taken advantage of being and undergraduate TA at Brown, I would mark that as unfortunate.</p>

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<p>I was a TA at Chicago, and a faculty member at a community college. I can say, with certainty and without hesitation, that I was a better teacher at the community college (and I didn't have any TAs).</p>

<p>For anyone interested in the true academic quality of an institution, that should be a sobering thought.</p>

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<p>Mini:</p>

<p>Why were you a better faculty member than you had been a TA? More years of training? Finishing your Ph.D.?</p>

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<p>Were you a better teacher because you'd had practice as a TA? Did everyone who started teaching at a CC have previous experience?</p>

<p>I took a CC German class for review, it was pretty good. It covered the same grammar, but we didn't read a novel as part of the first year curriculum.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I was a TA at Chicago, and a faculty member at a community college. I can say, with certainty and without hesitation, that I was a better teacher at the community college (and I didn't have any TAs).</p>

<p>For anyone interested in the true academic quality of an institution, that should be a sobering thought.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would expect that someone hired with a degree to teach college will be more experienced than a TA. It goes without saying. I have also taught at five colleges, including one community college, but with a graduate degree. I don't think the comparison should be between a TA at an Ivy (which is the topic of this thread) and the quality of a faculty member at a college, any college. At a school that has a TA who runs sections, there is a very qualified faculty member who teaches the course. At a community college, the faculty person has no TAs. I would compare the two faculty members but not a faculty member to a TA. They are not the same. But a TA is not usually the sole teacher of a course, unless I suppose some schools have a TA teach an early math course, foreign language or courses of that nature. But a TA who is teaching a section is not responsible for the entire curriculum, syllabus, etc. or teaching of the course itself.</p>

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<p>Who's making a comparison? I had 25 students in my sections at Chicago, and 25 students in my classes at the community college. I led discussions at both; graded papers in both; and provided final grades in both. I had more experience (and more degrees) when I taught at the community college. </p>

<p>"Were you a better teacher because you'd had practice as a TA? Did everyone who started teaching at a CC have previous experience?"</p>

<p>Yes, and (at least in my department) yes. I practiced on my Chicago students, in preparation for the real thing. There is no question that, as regards my teaching experience, the Chicago students got a raw deal (and the lectures from the profs they could have all read in a book - in fact, many did). For all intensive purposes, I "taught" the course. The students were, of course, virtually always better prepared at Chicago (not always smarter, though). </p>

<p>Again, if having TAs was considered desirable, you'd see it trumpeted all over the prestige universities websites. There are great advantages to prestige universities - but that's not what the subject of this forum is. And I expect the quality of the teaching is not what gives prestige universities their cachet in any case.</p>

<p>I think the shortchanging of students comes ESPECIALLY in the use of TAs in early language, science, math courses, precisely the point when students can benefit most greatly from experience and inspiration.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Again, if having TAs was considered desirable, you'd see it trumpeted all over the prestige universities websites. There are great advantages to prestige universities - but that's not what the subject of this forum is. And I expect the quality of the teaching is not what gives prestige universities their cachet in any case.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Source:<a href="http://cs.brown.edu/about/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cs.brown.edu/about/&lt;/a>
*
In our extensive undergraduate teaching assistant (UTA) program, qualified undergraduates participate in all aspects of course development and instruction and play an important peer-teaching and mentoring role in all our undergraduate courses. Having UTAs run study sections and explain computing concepts to their peers appropriately blurs the line between teaching and learning and encourages all students to take an active part in their education. This early teaching experience positions students to become leaders and prepares them for the many computing careers in which team-based, collaborative problem solving is the norm. Our UTA program is frequently cited by our graduates, their employers and their graduate advisors as an important contributing factor to the high quality of our graduates and goes far to account for the large number of our graduates who become leaders in academia and industry.
*
So I would say that not everyone is afraid of TAs, even undergraduate TAs, if they feel it betters their education. In some cases, it just might.</p>

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<p>They buried it far enough, didn't they? ;)</p>

<p>Now notice, unlike what Sooz suggested, they participate in "all aspects of course development and instruction" - in other words, the entire syllabus and the teaching of it - not just running sections. </p>

<p>I don't have any problem with it - if that's what people want to purchase with their $45k a year, who am I to argue?</p>

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<p>I can tell you exactly what they do. Having all taken the course, the give extensive feedback on what homeworks and projects they felt were most useful, which projects were easiest and hardest, help the professor adjust those projects, sometimes develop new, more useful projects. They're then responsible for attending the class (taught by the professor) and sometimes preparing mini-lessons to give the class (depends on course). Sometimes they over see a lab, and they're responsible to hold office hours each week to answer questions on the material or directly help when running into trouble while coding.</p>

<p>I learned more in my one CS class than I have in entire semesters. I think it's fantastic and worked ideally in the CS department, and that's why they continue to use it. I'd also so that that is hardly buried.</p>

<p>That being said, other departments hardly use TAs (and many never use undergraduate TAs) because they don't feel it works for them.</p>

<p>What it comes down to is that a school where undergraduate teaching is a priority and requirement for all professors, you'll find professors who want to teach and departments invested in far more than just research. Under this system, it doesn't matter if they're using TAs or professor to get things done, they take their teaching responsibility as a discipline seriously and do what they feel is best for the students.</p>

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<p>In their introductory CS course, Brown insists that the students MUST WORK ALONE to develop their programs. Collaboration is strictly forbidden, to ensure that all students understand the concepts completely. Students who fail to work alone are flunked. As a result, the professor needs a lot of assistance to teach the course, to make sure that students have access to assistance when needed--and it also ensures that TAs must really know the material.</p>

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<p>"In their introductory CS course, Brown insists that the students MUST WORK ALONE to develop their programs. Collaboration is strictly forbidden, to ensure that all students understand the concepts completely. Students who fail to work alone are flunked. As a result, the professor needs a lot of assistance to teach the course, to make sure that students have access to assistance when needed--and it also ensures that TAs must really know the material."</p>

<p>If Brown uses undergraduate students as TA's, why does it matter with whom another undergraduate collaborates? A student of Brown's caliber shouldn't have this type of rule, in my opinion. With an engineering student at one of the top rated schools, I have an idea of how engineering students study and work together. Collaboration is the norm, always. </p>

<p>I prefer an Honor Code to the "threat" of flunking for any student.</p>

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<p>Julietjane--</p>

<p>When everyone is doing the same programming project seeking to attempt the same solution to the same problem, and first learning how to do something as practical as learning a language, it can only be done with personal practice and your own going through and working it out. The engineering department here is highly collaborative, in fact, and loves to tout that fact. The truth is, with CS, you have to do it to learn it, and there is a certain amount of help and prodding that is appropriate (much of what the TAs are trained to find out where that fine line is) and there is straight up copying. With CS its far too easy to copy.</p>

<p>It's a fundamental misunderstanding of hte kind of work being done to say that about this particular intro CS course which I did take.</p>

<p>FWIW, in every other instance that I've come across at Brown collaboration was not only allowed, but recommended. Of course, the nature of the material was quite different.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
S was udergraduate Course Assistant (not work-study) last year; he met with the prof weekly (and is now taking a graduate course with the same prof), same as Soozie's D. His friend over at MIT was also undergraduate CA.
I am ambivalent about the use of undergraduate CAs, far more so than with graduate TFs, because there is less prior training for the CAs than there is available for TFs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Personally, I think undergrads should not serve as TAs because, basically, they are unqualified to teach at college level not being college graduates themselves. A senior Ph.D student would be OK though.</p>

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<p>CAs and TAs are not supposed to "teach." And my S did not. Nor did the TFs he 's had.<br>
My ambivalence has more to do with the amount of training CAs have before classes; supervision by profs; and the juggling of their own coursework with the responsibilities of being CAs. These are serious issues. But lack of college degree in and of itself is not.</p>

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<p>As an undergrad math TA, my S grades homework and works in the math help room. This summer, the prof he TA'd for graded the exams herself. I don't know about the prof he's working under this semester. I see nothing wrong with this. I suspect it enables the students to get their homework back faster, which is a good thing, and that if they have any quibbles with the grade they can appeal to the prof. The math help room allows students to get their questions answered fast, rather than wait in a line to see a prof during office hours. It's also less intimidating than going to a senior prof with a question a student might worry is stupid. Often students pop in right before class, and my S says some even sit in there and do their homework so they can ask a question whenever it comes up. Obviously, they are not going to sit in a prof's office and do their homework.</p>

<p>Moreover, working the math help room is an excellent educational experience for my S. As someone else posted, to explain a concept to someone else, you must really get it. He is never the only person in the help room -- and the others staffing it when he does are grad students. It's an educational experience AND he gets paid to do it, rather than the other way around.</p>

<p>Universities may do this to get some cheaper labor, but they also know that being a TA -- just like doing research -- is increasingly expected of students who will be applying for grad school. They should offer this opportunity in the types of courses where it makes sense. What's being portrayed as a negative for the undergrad experience is actually an opportunity for some undergrads.</p>

<p>The only math courses that are actually taught by grad students that I'm aware of are some sections of Calc I or II, which have many sections, some taught by quite senior faculty. Students choosing their class can select the one taught by a prof if they want. Most seem to go by the online reviews. Some of the grad students have rave reviews, I've noticed.</p>

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<p>Son says he never had a TA teaching any of the lecture classes (help sessions and lab helpers - yes). He also never had any classes larger than 60-65.</p>

<p>He also says that harder classes in general start out with larger #s, but shrink in size as the semester progresses.</p>