Ivy Alumni and Current Ivy Parents: What's the Real Deal on Class Size and T.A.s?

Parents Forum
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<p>I am not convinced that writing classes are the be-all, end-all route to writing success... I was pretty successful as a screenwriter and never took any writing classes at Brown.</p>

<p>Obviously classes encourage a student to crank out work, and instructors give critiques of the work. But style is so subjective. (I cannot count the number of Booker Prize-winning books that I couldn't finish!) The mesh/alchemy between teacher and student would seem to be key and just as difficult to achieve with highly accomplished teachers as it would be with qualified TAs. </p>

<p>JHS' point about the HS poetry is right on. Most young writers haven't got much of a self or a voice or a topic yet. It may be putting the cart before the horse for a lot of 20 year olds-- to hone the craft of writing prior to having something original to say. </p>

<p>The best 'training' for writing (IMO) is (1) reading widely and (2) going out and LIVING-- finding out who you are, how you see the world in a unique way, and what you can thus illuminate for others. In terms of putting people in touch with their inner voices, Brown is an excellent hothouse for writers.</p>

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<p>Loved the Seamus Heaney tale, garland.</p>

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<p>This is excerpted, verbatim, from a post on another current CC thread; thought it fit here. Also an alum, says nothing about current situation:</p>

<p>"I went to Harvard. Husband went to a second tier LAC. S, 19, is at a second tier LAC. From what I can tell, H got and S is getting better education than I did at Harvard because both my husband and S were taught by faculty whose main interest was teaching, not research. I am floored by the personal interest that faculty took in my husband during his college education. I am floored by the creative teaching that S is getting in his education. I had some of that at Harvard, but it was rare, not routine. I had the opportunity to hear a lot of great lectures. S is having lots of opportunities for fascinating class discussions under the tuteledge of a prof, not TAs, and he has several classes that combine instruction and theory with service learning or other hands-on experiences.</p>

<p>What Harvard had over my husband and S's experiences was a very large, exceptionally smart group of students who were self motivated to be deeply involved in all sorts of activities ranging from clubs to community activities to academic research. I don't think, however, that would be worth going $40 k in debt to experience. "</p>

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<p>"I am not convinced that writing classes are the be-all, end-all route to writing success... I was pretty successful as a screenwriter and never took any writing classes at Brown."</p>

<p>"The mesh/alchemy between teacher and student would seem to be key and just as difficult to achieve with highly accomplished teachers as it would be with qualified TAs. "</p>

<p>Maybe not the be-all, end-all, but the article referenced in post #113 of this thread presents some opinions that seem to differ with yours, from people who DID take writing classes at their school. The impression I came away with from that article is that those individuals did in fact find their writing classes to be pretty helpful. Which is not to say it's the only path to success, or that everyone who takes these classes becomes successful.</p>

<p>In the article people gave significant importance to who their teachers were; some of the ascribed benefits would not have been present in classes led by TAs. So I would imagine these writers would disagree with you on this point as well.</p>

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<p>monydad:</p>

<p>What the Harvard alum posted may well continue to be true... or it may not. The reason is that pedagogy has changed in the quarter century since the poster attended Harvard. While it continues to have profs interested in research and conducting large lectures, technology has changed and it affects the way teaching and learning happen. </p>

<p>What would be interesting is to compare the educational experiences of two students with similar interests and personalities, with one attending Harvard (or Yale or Princeton) and the other a LAC. I factor in interests and personalities because these dictate what kinds of classes they will take and how they would interact with fellow students and faculty. I believe twinmom has two kids in such a situation and I would love to read what her take is on her kids' experiences.</p>

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<p>You can post reviews from people who went places 30 years ago all you want. What I can tell you is simply this-- what I have experienced at Brown University, thus far, from 2005 until now, is an unparalleled educational experience and opportunities that would not have presented themselves had I attended any other institution in the country. That's why I chose it and that's why I am there.</p>

<p>I happen to hold liberal education as a strong value and am in fact, currently a student representative seeking to critique Brown's success (or lack thereof) in this area. I think that the LAC thing is a great opportunity and can be wonderful in terms of teaching. However, there are many advantages to having faculty members who are actively participating in research regularly engaging with undergraduates. That can, and does happen, to a large extent at many of the Ivy schools. I can only speak from first hand experience at Brown, obviously, but I think looking at the numbers it's quite clear that you can have similar experiences at Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, etc.</p>

<p>It'd be ridiculous to write off all universities where professors are actively engaging in research as places where there are not professors actively engaging in teaching! Professors at many universities are hired to TEACH and know that. They get frustrated when students don't take advantage of office hours not because they're then wasting time from research, but because it's their JOB to teach and to mentor and they chose that profession and job and love to do it. THIS IS NOT RARE AMONGST FACULTY OF THE 21ST CENTURY!</p>

<p>I cannot stress enough how much this has changed, particularly in the Ivy League in the last 30 years. Having engaged professors who have been at Brown since the start of the New Curriculum and discussing how it's evolved since 1969, the commitment to teaching demonstrated is both clear and absolute.</p>

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<p>I do have two kids - the same age - both involved high achievers - one in a top LAC, the other at Harvard. Like everything else in life, one should not make generalizations. Each type of school has its own virtues, and both of my kids are happy. My kids both like the other's school when visiting one another. Yes, the school environments are very different. Of course they have to be. Yes, advising is much better at the LAC. Yes,there are more course selections at the university. One has "this" and the other has "that." </p>

<p>Both school have nurturing housing environments. Both have excellent professors; more of Harvard's are world famous. One Harvard professor wrote the book for the same course that the other was simultaneously taking at the LAC. </p>

<p>This is an age-old debate with no clear answer. Students have to find what fit them best. Neither is wrong. As I've said before, my Harvard student could have been happy at certain LACs. My LAC student could have been happy at certain universities. Many of their friends feel the same way. </p>

<p>My kids were smart - smart in that they visited lots of schools and thought about what they liked and didn't like. They're regular kids who work hard and take advantage of their resources. </p>

<p>I have to agree with modestmelody in that education is unparalleled at both of these institutions, as I'm sure it is in Brown.</p>

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<p>"You can post reviews from people who went places 30 years ago all you want. "</p>

<p>Was merely providing some alums viewpoints, based on their experiences, per OPs request. As have others on this same thread, similarly removed.</p>

<p>Upon reflection, perhaps OP meant by "ivy alumni" really only "recent Ivy alumni". Which would make sense. However the majority of alumni wading around here are parents, so the time-lag is somewhat unavoidable.</p>

<p>"monydad:</p>

<p>What the Harvard alum posted may well continue to be true... or it may not"</p>

<p>True, didn't suggest otherwise, just adding the impressions of another "Ivy alumni". Equally true of my own impressions. Or all of ours as posted here, from 30years distant.</p>

<p>Agree that if there were more recent college grads still posting on CC than there are parents of current & future students these responses would be more obviously accurate.</p>

<p>My own uninformed opinion, with respect to the institutions I attended, is not that much has changed that significantly. But I could be completely wrong. However, I'm certainly not going back to school(s) there to find out!</p>

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<p>You don't have to look at two different students. You can compare the experiences of the <em>same</em> student. CC member Hanna spent two of her undergrad years at a top LAC and two at Harvard. She had this to say about the different experiences:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4186957&postcount=127%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4186957&postcount=127&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Hanna's reasons listed in that above thread is why it does not shock me that some students choose Brown over Harvard or why some (such as myself) don't bother to even apply to Harvard.</p>

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<p>I've advocated for schools such as Dartmouth, Princeton and Brown for my first two kids as providing the best of both worlds.
My personal experience was at a large public, where I had two conversations with one professor over 4 years, and at a major private research university. The research university has twice the number of of post-undergraduate students as undergrads. In my PhD program none of the professors wanted to teach undergraduates. I also don't remember an undergraduate student used as a work-study research assistant. All the postings for these jobs required a bachelors degree. There were more than enough graduate students to go around.
I wouldn't automatically assume a research university is a place for undergraduates to participate in research. It's very possible that might happen more easily at an LAC.</p>

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<p>Re post 171:</p>

<p>S's friend, who's not even on work-study talked himself into a research job this past summer with a famous prof. He'd taken a large lecture course with that prof. That was his calling card. Another friend spent the summer in a lab.
I know/have known quite a few undergraduates on work-study. Some, not all, do research. Graduate students are hired as TFs; I don't know of any who are on work-study (and I know quite a few, though only in certain disciplines). My H, many moons ago, was a research assistant, whose studies were entirely underwritten by a grant from the Navy. That was not considered Work-Study.</p>

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<p>Many, many undergraduates do work study, including my kids. It's just that many (most?) of these positions aren't research positions.
I agree that it is possible to talk yourself into positions anywhere, particularly at schools with "deep pockets".</p>

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<p>At my D's school, Brown, many of her undergrad friends have done research jobs for professors. That is not an interest of hers but lots of opportunities to do that abound. In her case, she is a TA for a course, as an undergrad, so has that contact in weekly meetings with the professor and grad TAs. My D is paid to TA and her friends were paid for the research jobs. None of this was under the "work study" FA umbrella at all.</p>

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<p>That's why I advocated for Dartmouth, Princeton and Brown!</p>

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<p>S was udergraduate Course Assistant (not work-study) last year; he met with the prof weekly (and is now taking a graduate course with the same prof), same as Soozie's D. His friend over at MIT was also undergraduate CA.
I am ambivalent about the use of undergraduate CAs, far more so than with graduate TFs, because there is less prior training for the CAs than there is available for TFs.</p>

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<p>I am also worried about using undergrads as teaching assistants/fellows. If Undergrads have weekly meetings with profs it should be for one on one research tutorials. In my opinion, undergrads, no matter how smart, should not be in an official teaching and especially not grading role with other undergrads. On the other hand, they can be great as "mentors" in a role separate from teaching and grading.</p>

<p>Is the practice of undergrad TFs/TAs/CAs becoming more popular?</p>

<p>I would be interested in more info from forum participants about this.</p>

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<p>As TA, my D leads two sections. Each week, the TAs meet (many are grad students) with the professor and discuss the sections for that week and one TA is responsible for coming up with the "plan" for that week's section. They rotate that responsibility and so my D will come up wth the plans for about two weeks' worth of sections. Then, each week, she leads two sections. She does NOT grade papers! If there is a black and white assignment like identifying slides (right or wrong answers), she may have to grade those. She also has to have office hours for anyone who wants individual help. She has led sections for a week so far and said it went so great and called us with exhuberance of how wonderful of a time it was. I can only comment on her end...you'd have to ask the students what they think.</p>

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<p>It's a long established practice in math and the sciences, apparently. S was CA and has had CAs. One of them served as CA in a course S took, then was a fellow student in another course with S.
The CAs are chosen from among those who've already taken the course (or in the case of Calculus courses, who have taken the harder version of the course). S's chum at MIT was invited to be CA of a course after acing it in his freshman year. The idea is that grading in such courses is less likely to be subjective than in the humanities or social sciences.</p>

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<p>Re; Hanna:</p>

<p>Her experience as she perceived it was what it was. However one must decide how much of it is globally applicable.</p>

<p>IIRC, a good part of her beef was the relative lack of academic engagement of her fellow students, who were sitting in this small classroom and shutting up, or had nothing of interest to contribute. There is no reason to believe that there is anything generic about the LAC format that causes students attending classes in it to be unengaged (you'd expect quite the contrary, when the students can't hide), and nothing about a university format that causes students sitting in a class to be engaged in discussion (quite the contrary, in the huge lecture format classes I experienced). So there must be other explanations for this. One would be it just so happened she hit a couple crappy classes, by luck of the draw. </p>

<p>Another would be that the academic capabilities of undergrads at these two particular institutions are actually not that close. Per 2007 US News,. the 75%ile at that LAC = the lowest 25%ile at that university, and the midpoint of the SATranges differ by 185 points. There is a point where close enough really doesn't make any discernable difference in the classroom, but then there's a point where it probably does make a difference.</p>

<p>It probably is true that if you're going to be in a lot of small discussion based classses, who you're in the classes with becomes extremely important.</p>

<p>The fact that they attract academically engaged students - and otherwise-engaged students, per the quote I lifted previously- IS a feature of the ivy league schools, and should legitimately be considered. This IS important. Some might even conclude it's the greatest relative strength of these schools. However there are LACs that undoubtedly also attract academically engaged students. That doesn't mean every LAC does, or that every research university does either. In addition I have related previously the downside of experiencing academic engagement in its most extreme forms: in some cases tending to shy away from overly competitive classes outside of one's major, thereby actually stunting one's academic experience. </p>

<p>However attracting top students is not what this thread is about. This thread is about how the universities treat those top students once they get there;- ie the product the universities actually themselves provide beyond their candidate screening function.</p>

<p>Another point would be that , for many, arguably the worst part of the university experience (TAs, huge lectures) is the first part, and she missed that by attending an LAC during that leg.</p>

<p>A lot of the rest of her grievances are perfectly valid and do reflect real differences in these types of institutions which the individual prospective applicant should consider.</p>

<p>All this talk about sections led by undergrad TAs and CAs: recognize much of this would not be happening at many LACs, to the same extent, and all these sections would be led by professors. Mini has previously commented on the relative merits of this for the students in these sections. It seems like it could be good experience for those few undergrad students selected as TAs though.</p>