When I attended, the vast majority of Cornell engineering college students did not get “weeded out” at all. They graduated from the engineering college. The data I recall seeing indicated that if anything the graduation rate has actually increased from then.
Second of all there was no “engineering management” major there, at all, at least when I attended.
There was an IE/OR major which people jokingly called “imaginary engineering” (it really stood for “industrial engineering”) which applied mathematical techniques to business problems. The joking name was not because it was any easier than anything else, it was just because those people didn’t build anything physical like the mechanical, electrical, etc people did. It did not have the reputation of being any easier than other majors there, nor was it a default "dumping ground’ for people who couldn’t hack other majors there. It was for people who had those interests, period.
The people I knew who had trouble in their chosen engineering major did not switch to IE/OR. Most of them scraped by in their chosen major. The few who wanted out did not switch to IE/OR, they left the engineering college altogether, A few switched to other colleges within the university.
Point is, there is some weeding by GPA higher than 2.0 for most Cornell engineering majors. There probably is not much weeding (much less so than at schools like Wisconsin, where some engineering majors require a 3.5 technical and 3.0 overall GPA to stay in), since the GPA thresholds are typically 2.2 to 2.5, but it is not nonexistent either.
As I pointed it out in my previous post, COE’s 4 yrs graduation rate is 86%, not that much different than Cornell’s overall 87%. I don’t see where ucbalumnus is drawing any kind of conclusion that there is an intentional weeding out at COE. There will always be some students who decide engineering, or other majors, is not for them after freshman year. 2.2 is a very low bar to stay in engineering.
@ucbalumnus brings this up frequently in terms of lots of colleges, implying weeding by GPA. I agree it does not necessarily indicate intentional weeding. At Virginia Tech , you need a 3.0 to get your first choice major. But, most get their top choice, and the engineering department is supportive, with lots of resources to help students . Agree with @oldfort and @monydad that there does not appear to be an intentional weedout culture at Cornell .
Maybe “weed-out” is too strong a term for the low grades earned by many in the introductory courses. I know with both of my girls they were strong math/science kids, and not having much experience chose to pursue engineering; since that is one of the few majors that seemed fitted for their skill set. However, the reality is that just being strong in math/science is not enough to truly excel in those types of courses… a new baseline much be established. So perhaps those who do not do well initially are forced to re-evaluate their path, find a new gear to master the material, or switch majors all-together.
Still, 2.2 > 2.0 which is needed to stay in good academic standing, implying that a department with a GPA minimum of 2.2 is capacity-limited and cannot accept all interested students in good academic standing.
It is not necessarily that they want to do that, but they have to because some of their departments do not have enough capacity to handle all interested students in those majors, so those majors have to set weed-out thresholds higher than good academic standing (2.0 GPA or C grades) to regulate intake, or they have to admit by major at the frosh admission stage. Changing department capacity can be a much slower process than the change in student demand for a given major.
When I lived in the Midwest, our flagship state university was known for accepting kids and then weeding them out.
For political reasons they had to accept kids that were academically unqualified. “Serving the state”, and all that. Since they were funded by the state.
But they did not have to guarantee that those kids would be able to stay there.
My colleagues who attended there said there was a large flunk-out rate freshman year.
Most private colleges do not operate under those constraints. For them, retention is more important.
They do not accept many academically unqualified students.
On another note, if you are making less than a 2.2 GPA in the area you plan to major in, then you are probably either in the wrong major and/or the wrong school. In many cases you would probably be better served going elsewhere. Of course it is more desirable to be able to make that decision yourself. But still…
Capacity constraints may well often be a factor. But maybe also concern about the student successfully completing the major. And in some cases, branding of certain majors as elite programs.
I expect these type of major requirements at Cornell more relate to Cornell departments deciding what they think is the minimum requirement to be successful in the field or to hold their department up to what they believe are minimum standards, rather than any type of capacity limitation. It’s not limited to just engineering. Some examples from the A&S school are below:
Religious Studies – All courses for the major must be taken for a letter grade and students must receive a grade of B- or better in order for it to count toward the major.
History of Art – For admission into the major, students are required to have completed the 1000-level gateway class, ARTH 1100 - Art Histories: An Introduction, and to have received at least a grade of B.
At the big NYStateU my S is at, the most popular major is “former engineer”. The top 10-15% of his class is indistinguishable from most IVY+ students. Those students are not being weeded out. Actually, quite a few of his college friends have siblings in Ivy schools, mostly Cornell for engineering.
It is when you get down to the average freshman who said “i want to be pre-med” and then run into Calc2 or any hard science without doing the work. Most change to business, economics or poly sci.
Retention rate in engineering has become more important at many colleges, including public ones . Some of this is school dependent. My kids went to UVA and VT and retention is good at both. More “weeding out” seems to be being done these days at the initial acceptance level at many publics, more so than a generation or two ago.
There are other theories out there regarding what happens to women in general. The male dominated atmosphere is not supportive and very toxic in many engineering and related fields and causes many women to look elsewhere.
My D initially thought college was “easier” than high school. Dean’s list first semester. Along came second semester, and a really tough class. She didn’t go to the professor right away when she realized she was struggling, and got a D on her first test. Well that was a wake up call. She ended with with a C in that class, which ruined her shot at the Dean’s List again.
She has been trying to make up for that one C all of sophomore year, but she learned a lesson, which is that when you only have 2-3 grades in a class, you need to be proactive to ensure you understand the material.
I’m glad she got a D on that test. It was a needed realization. College isn’t supposed to be easy, and that doesn’t just apply to engineering students.
P.S., Happy to say she’s on the Dean’s List again:-)
P.S.S. This doesn’t just apply to the Ivy League.
I actually had a kid who didn’t have the best grades in high school , but ended up excelling in engineering once he got to college. Go figure. But his school made him prove himself his first semester in calculus and physics before they allowed him to move into engineering. I don’t blame them !
^^ Funny, isn’t it? The reality is that not everyone grows up by the age of 18. I’ve taught plenty of HS seniors who didn’t really hit their stride until college… and that’s really, really OK.
D was the one kid who had six APs and still went to bed before 10 pm every night in HS. Yes, she elected not to go to MIT and U Chicago, as she wanted balance in her college life and not studying and doing PSETs all the time. She is a rising CS premed sophomore at Vandy and is extreme happy there, with the balance she finds. She will be officers in two organizations next year and is currently doing CS paid research at Vandy medical school. I think college choice has something to do with how successful you will be in your selected college.
She got one A- in the first year. The average GPA for Cal III is 2.6. She and several of her friends decided not to take final, and take A- instead (you can elect not to take the final, and take one grade down, meaning from A to A-)
She had grades of 82, 76 on the first two Chem mid term. But she figured out how to study for tests by the 3rd mid term. She had 5 on AP and 800 on chem subject test, so college weed out can be intense. And there is an adjustment process from HS to college, especially for difficult majors! From what she told me…
rework all the problems yourself
find a good study partner…she didn’t think study group is productive. She is very selective with her study partner.
I don’t think she goes to office hour much, the time she went she said it was so crowded. She contacted TA directly via email
study the syllabus, so that you know the grading and weight. No false alam or complacency. D knew exactly what she needed to get an A for each class before finals.
talk to upperclassmen for what to watch for and which professors to watch for. D knew that CS tests are hard, so she studied harder.
knowing that you will not be perfect and build in cushions yourself when you can, get those bonus points!
“Funny, isn’t it? The reality is that not everyone grows up by the age of 18. I’ve taught plenty of HS seniors who didn’t really hit their stride until college… and that’s really, really OK.”
Back in my own high school/college days, you’d often hear about “late bloomers” and it seemed totally fine and acceptable. Funny, how little you hear that phrase these days.
To add to my post #9, my S goes to Cornell and his take away from his first year and a half (STEM and business courses; he does very well in others) is that you do have to be proactive and stay on top of the Psets, find a good study/lab partner (for his stats and CS classes) and do not ever slack off because the pace of some classes is very fast. One course he took, the prof covered material by prelims that other schools would typically take the entire semester (this from the prof).