I read on another thread that selective colleges expect multiple honors or AP sciences, and wanted to solicit everyone’s opinions - is this true for all students, or only for STEM ones?
D is a rising junior, and this year she’ll be taking APUSH, AP Calc BC, AP Spanish, AP Seminar, English Honors (no English AP’s until 12th grade), and regular physics (no honors sciences in our school). And on top of that an extra elective through dual enrollment. Next year she plans to take AP Physics or AP Bio in addition to AP Stats, AP Language (English), AP Research, AP Gov, and AP Comp Gov.
Our school allows kids to go straight into AP Physics after Calculus, but for AP Bio and AP Chem, you need to take regular classes first. In the spring, when she was choosing classes for 11th grade, D mentioned that she might need to take AP Bio instead of regular physics in order to get “the most rigorous coursework” checked, but I dismissed it as ridiculous and put my fut down, saying 4 AP’s a year is enough.
Does anyone think D was right and in order to be considered by top 5 colleges she’d need at least two AP stem classes? Thanks!
Yes, the top schools do want to see that “most rigorous” box checked off, but that doesn’t mean one has to take every single AP that is offered. Your D should discuss this with is her guidance counselor because his/her opinion of what is “most rigorous” is the one that matters.
That said: 1) most colleges do like to see a sequence of biology, chemistry, and physics taken in HS and 2) creating a schedule that won’t overwhelm your D is important.
@happy1, thanks, I will ask her to do that. She took regular bio and regular chem the first two years of HS, so I just hope she won’t be penalized for taking Capstone over more rigorous STEM courseload overall. Would colleges even analyze her coursework if the checkbox is not checked, much like they re-calculate GPA based on their own formula? Thanks!
I can’t speak for every admission officer at every college but the top.schools typically look for that most rigorous designation. They will see the transcript but the guidance counselors opinion does matter. To me her schedule looks quite strong.
Is she thinking a humanities major? If so, there’s a little give on the stem side and more expectation in humanities.
Are you looking at what the colleges themselves recommend?
Harvard: “The study of science for four years: physics, chemistry, and biology, and preferably one of these at an advanced level.”
Stanford: “three or more years of laboratory science (including biology, chemistry and physics).”
But you said “top 5” and summer before junior year is early to focus on those. You have yet to see how she does with an AP heavy load.
Many/most GCs rate rigor incuding 12th, not just through 11th. AP stats isn’t as important to colleges. It’s not “She who has the most AP wins,” if it seems courses were chosen just for the AP designation.
And few top privates recalculate, period. They look at the transcript, see the courses, rigor and grades.
@lookingforward, yes, she is a humanities major, and she’ll have three years .of lab science in school, plus astronomy + lab taken at local community college. Re AP Stats - the only alternative would be multi-variable calculus, and TBH, I just don’t see the use for someone interested in majoring in languages and global studies, etc
She does not need “at least 2 AP STEM classes”. As @happy1 says, she needs that ‘most rigorous’ tick. What that entails at your school is the question, and that is best answered by a direct conversation with the GC- now, or as soon as possible/ before school starts. With absolutely no disrespect to your daughter, sometimes the kids do get hold of the wrong end of the stick, and there might be more than 1 path though the maze.
Fwiw, it’s worth remembering that your daughter could well take that class, get that ‘most rigorous’ tick- and still not get in. And if she doesn’t take the class, and doesn’t get in, it quite possibly will not be b/c she didn’t take the class.
She has a pretty tough schedule for this year- keep a weather eye out to make sure that she is ok. A lot of kids sail through grades 9 & 10, but then the work ratchets up a level in grade 11, just as their EC responsibilities also ratchet up, and they can sometimes struggle or burn out. Senior year looks kinder - you see 4 APs, but I see Comp + US Gov, which even together are lighter than USHx; Lang, which should suit a humanities kid; and Stats, which after BC should be a doddle). If the Physics is Physics 1, coming off honors physics it should be straightforward (Bio is content heavy imo).
@happy1’s suggestion of talking to the GC is a good one: find out what it will take to get the magic tick,
@collegemom3717, thank you, thank you! I too don’t want D to take classes she doesn’t want simply to please a college. Still unsure about Calc BC vs AB, but she won’t budge there - she wants to take it junior year and “be done with math forever”. That’s why I think multi-variable Calc is not in the cards. Yes, next year is going to be tough… it gives me some small hope that she breezed through AP Euro this year and loves History in general, so hopefully APUSH won’t be too bad, either. Bottom line - will talk to GC in the fall
She needbio, chem, physics, plus one more science. If she takes AP physics 1 she’s perfectly ok. (AP physics C could actually backfire because it’s for hardcore stem kids who want to major in physics or engineering in college - it’s not even appropriate for pre-meds.).
AP stats after calc (ab or bc) is fine for a Humanities kid.
If it is available, I would recommend she take a philosophy class through dual enrollment as this indicates strong rigor for humanities candidates (in a subject that’s more important than, say, astronomy) and perhaps a more advanced Japanese class or an Asian studies class through dual enrollment too.
She will need to specify in ‘additional information’ that he was in a Japanese immersion program from kindergarten through 8th grade hence the AP Japanese in 9th. Some top colleges want to make sure the language is a ‘foreign’ language.
Could someone elaborate on how they know the GC’s “magic tick” for most rigorous coursework is paramount for AO’s?
I don’t see why they would value that check as it is not standardized at all. What counts as “most rigorous”? The definition varies greatly, not only from school to school but within schools. Our GC’s at a large public each follow their own system.
I think it’s more likely that AO’s will look at the school profile and see whether the student took some of the most challenging courses in all subjects. Maybe those applying as STEM majors need to take multiple science AP’s to compete at the highest levels—I don’t know. As far as which AP science OP’s daughter should take, I would recommend whichever she likes best since she has already tried all three. (Or whichever fits in her schedule which is what it came down to for my D because schedules full of specialized classes can be a puzzle.)
I think you are overthinking this. In the 10 minutes (or less) that an AO spends on an application, I doubt they are looking at the transcript and crossreferencing the school profile in any depth. If the “most demanding” box is checked, they probably move on. Yes, I agree there is no common metric as to what “most demanding” means, but an AO can quickly eyeball a transcript.
OP said “top 5,” which changes lots about the expectations. It’s not most rigorous, but “most demanding,” if anyone wants to try to figure the difference.
AO’s do know if a hs is rigorous and yes, can see it on the transcript or not. But yes, it’s about what the GC thinks, in that high school, knowing the offerings, their individual demands and what other top students are taking. Good chance OP’s D is on the right track, as far as courses go. Just realize it will be the rest of the full app that then weighs. Heavily.
There are no magic passes but top adcoms want to see that endorsement from the GC. If several kids apply (plus others down the street or across town,) it can matter. Remember, the focus here is on tippy tops. Yes, adcoms will still look at the transcript.
The “most demanding” indication would generally be one of many necessary passes, but nowhere near sufficient on its own, to admission to a super-selective college.
Of course, as others have posted elsewhere, some counselors and schools may not have consistent criteria or are willing to tell students or parents how they determine whether to give the “most demanding” indication, which can fuel an “arms race” mentality among students and parents (e.g. prospective humanities majors feeling that they need to take as many AP sciences as possible), or cause them to be suspicious of corruption and favoritism.
@MYOS1634, thanks, funny you should mention it, she already took philosophy through DE spring of her sophomore year. It won’t go on her HS transcript, though, because school diesn’t weigh DE and extra unweighted classes would actually bring down her GPA. As mentioned, she is taking AP Spanish this coming year, and unfortunately she can’t take the second FL she is fluent in as heritage speaker through DE.
I know grades and coursework are only a part of the equation and won’t get a kid into a top school without equally impressive EC’s and essays. My goal is to guide my kid without overwhelming her. For example, I told her that 760 is a good enough score for Subject Math II, no need to retake it, and it won’t make a difference in her application if she has a 760 or a 790. Now I am trying to understand if it makes a difference for humanities kid to take two AP sciences over one if GC is willing to tick off that box anyway. I believe she might be able to take AP Bio or AP Chem instead of AP Stats her senior year, but is it really worth it considering it’s a college/scholarships apps year - would it even make a difference at those tippy top schools? Thanks!
First a piece of unsolicited advice. You are looking to steer your daughter in the right direction without having her overwhelmed and that is great. But I would suggest when you think about college and when you discuss colleges with your D that you don’t set goals or use terms like “top 5 colleges” or “tippy top schools.” Those schools, with acceptances rates under 10% (most are lower) must be considered to be reaches for any unhooked applicant – even one with outstanding grades, course rigor, standardized tests, ECs, recommendations, essays etc. There is simply not enough room for these schools to accept all f the very well qualified candidates. Instead I would suggest that you use expressions like wanting her to have a lot of great college choices or something like that. Be sure to focus her attention not just on the reach schools but also on the match and safety schools. IMO finding those low match/ safety schools that one would be happy to attend is an underrated but extremely important part of the process.
Second, to answer your question the choice of AP Bio/AP Chem or AP Stat will again come down the the guidance counselor’s assessment of what would be the “most rigorous” schedule. The exception would be if your D does not take physics this year then I would recommend taking physics as a senior as most colleges do like to see a sequence of biology, chemistry and physics taken in HS.
