Ivy League Hand-holding

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
1

<p>Ok, this isn't exclusive to Princeton but since it is much more undergrad focused, I thought more people on this forum would have a stance on this. Plus this is just a cooler forum. But anyways, here's my question: Out of Princeton, Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, which one babies it's students the most? Which one best guides them through the college years, actively helps them achieve their goals, and fosters close relationships with the professors? Which one gives former valedictorians that warm fuzzy feeling that they are just as special as they were when they were the stars of their high-school? Which one best helps you get that dream job?</p>

<p>Basically I'm curious which of these bigger, more prestigious schools still packs in the benefits of smaller liberal arts colleges or less prestigious universities. I know that being babied isn't necessarily a good thing...but it's fun and I want to know which colleges do it and which don't...if any do it at alll.</p>

2

<p>In deciding to which college I wanted to apply early, I asked myself the same question as you, the answer to which was a major factor in my decision. </p>

<p>Out of all the colleges you mentioned, Princeton is known to pay the most individual attention to the student (while Yale is close behind). Some people don't like the thought of "hand-holding": they like to imagine themselves in college as totally free and independent. While Princeton affords that independence to students, it is also known for keeping its students happy and paying special attention to the individual. First of all, of all the schools you mentioned, Princeton has the best student : professor ratio (see US news data), plus their classes are broken up into precepts which meet every week or so. That means that students get more individualized attention from professors than at YHS (and also, Princeton's star professors teach undergrads, whereas H's and S's stars more commonly teach at the grad schools, leaving the undergrads to the younger, inexperienced professors). Secondly, since Princeton is outside of NYC, as opposed to right inside of or next to a major city, the student body is very tight-knit, and students are among the happiest in the country (according to P. Review, which I should mention isn't affiliated with the school in any way), also having the highest alumni donation rate in the country by a very large margin. Also, since Princeton is the only of the schools you mentioned without a large grad school program, its reputation comes purely from its focus on you, the undergraduate, as opposed to the other schools' reputations based on their law/business/med schools. It also has the largest endowment per capita of any school in the world (most financial resources to spend on each student). As to which one will stroke your ego, honestly I'm not sure that any of the schools you mentioned will give you that feeling, since all are filled with the best and brightest. That doesn't mean, though, that you'll be forgotten. At Princeton, for instance, if you can't make it home for Thanksgiving, the school's president invites you to her house for Thanksgiving dinner. If you told dean Hargadon your name, legend had it that he'd remember what was special about your application. That's pretty warm and fuzzy, if you ask me! Even though you might be surrounded by geniuses, Princeton doesn't seem to lose sight of the individual. (Whereas I've heard that at H, the graduate schools are the highest priority while undergrads are neglected, and at S, the administration is not active in guiding the students toward successful futures and students are left on their own.)</p>

<p>One thing in particular that drew me to Pton was the fact that, of HYP, its students didn't seem to be cutthroat in the least. As you can see from these boards, in fact, they seem to be very spirited and enthusiastic in pursuing their own interests, rather than competing with or discrediting others. So, while it a highly intellectual environment, it is not a very threatening place to learn. Also, although it is known as the "preppiest" of the schools you mentioned, that image is far from the truth. Actually, Princeton has the highest percentage of kids on financial aid, and it offers the best financial aid program, which attracts a wide range of students. </p>

<p>Obviously this is a little one-sided, but my polarized opinions aren't because of my future-Princetonan status. On the contrary, my Princetonian status is a result of my opinions; based on what I found when looking into all of the schools you mentioned, I couldn't resist applying to Princeton early, and I'm very happy with that decision.</p>

3

<p>Chris gave an excellent answer to your question, and I agree with what he says: Princeton, of the other schools (HYS) is the one school that notes the individual and looks after your interests. It definitely is the best school that "helps you get that dream job" - the career advising system is tops, the alumni network is amazingly well-connected, and the Princetonians I know have had amazing internship opportunities in a diverse range of fields - all this before even graduating! </p>

<p>
[quote]
Which one gives former valedictorians that warm fuzzy feeling that they are just as special as they were when they were the stars of their high-school?

[/quote]
If this is what you are looking for, then I can safely say that none of HYPS will revere valedictorians - every student was admitted because they are terrific; each was top in their school, region, country etc. I've heard President Tilghman mention this very fact, saying that it is one of the big adjustments you make going to a top school - you will no longer be the big fish in a small pond, and just like you, your peers will be intelligent, talented and eager to excel. I personally find this exhilarating rather than disadvantageous.</p>

<p>In terms of competition, Harvard is apparently the most cutthroat, and Princeton was known to be more "intellect" than "competition" focused. With the new grade inflation policy that puts you in direct competition with your classmates, however, I'm not sure if this will change.</p>

<p>Professor-student relationships at Princeton are also the best of the other schools. Harvard students often find it intimidating to 'bother' their illustrious professors with questions, and the term "office hours" is more a formality than a reality. TAs are abound at the other colleges but at Princeton students really have a chance to interact with their professors - it is common to find a group of students having a discussion with their professor over lunch at Frist. Even the Dean of Woodrow Wilson has taught students in a Freshman Seminar. </p>

<p>It is not so much Hand-holding as truly caring for the students, and particularly undergraduates. Princeton far outstretches the other schools in fulfilling this need, and this is one of the most attractive qualities of the school.</p>

4

<p>Precisely. Now if only they'd hurry up and send me my e-mail address @princeton.edu... <em>wi</em>**<em>l gaze</em></p>

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<p>I'm not sure "hand-holding" is a good term for something a prospective Ivy Leaguer should be looking for. If you are willing to make the effort to get to know your professors, advisors, etc., you will be fine at any of the four. (After all, if one of them admits you, they're demonstrating that they think you can handle it.) On that note, however, I do think that of the four, Harvard has the reputation for being the least coddling (what with the research-focused professors and all).</p>

6

<p>Thanks for the responses! I'm not really looking for a hand-holding school, even though I know that my original post makes it sound like I am; I know that if I really wanted to be treated differently, I would go to a school where I was at the top of the class, a school that would give me a full scholarship, give me priority in courses, etc. I have been faced with that opportunity and rejected it because I ultimately don't think that it would do me any favors in the long run; it doesn't matter if you're the biggest fish if the pond is small... So I guess I didn't state myself clearly - I know that it's a lot harder to stand out in HYPS, but I just want to know what place better helps with the transition and guides you enough so you don't need hand-holding and can become independent and successful. (And I was joking about the "warm fuzzy feeling." Somehow, I don't think people are going to Harvard for the warm fuzzies...) Basically, I was wondering how large the differences are between HYPS in this area. </p>

<p>[Not that it matters much to this discussion, but I was accepted early action to Stanford and am mainly trying to decide between Stanford and Princeton (If I get in of course...April 1st seems like it will never get here...). What attracts me most about Princeton is the focus on undergraduates and what I see as a more personal, individual interaction with the students; I'm trying to figure out exactly how far ahead of other colleges Princeton is in this respect.]</p>

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<p>The Moxiest, I'm a parent with an '08 at Princeton. Christopher and Gianievve had really good reponses above. I don't have much to add, but I can pass along a couple examples to you.
My '08er had a freshman seminar with a professor who is renowned both in his field and as a great teacher. Aside from the small group for discussion purposes, there were one-on-one mtgs with the prof, and it is also common for these sems to get together for lunches or dinners, or even field trips related to the course. The Freshman Seminars are optional, but a nice option! </p>

<p>Of the courses my child has this semester, all but one are under a dozen students. The intro class that is bigger has a precept (discussion group) that has just a few students as well and is led by a professor. It meets every week for a couple of hours. The precept set-up is standard at Princeton for lecture classes. I think Woodrow Wilson instituted it. </p>

<p>The profs are definitely available for discussions, questions, and help. My kid talks/meets with the profs, emails them with questions, and really likes them a lot for their expertise of course, but also for their accessibility, humor, and insights. They have been great people to have as teachers, aside from being leaders in their fields. </p>

<p>Good luck to you--and to all others waiting out there!</p>

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<p>In response to this...

[quote]
it doesn't matter if you're the biggest fish if the pond is small...I know that it's a lot harder to stand out in HYPS

[/quote]

...I think, to be honest, that most students at HYPS stand out in some way.</p>

<p>(just a thought)</p>

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<p>Well, uh...I honestly don't know what I'm doing on the Princeton board since I'm not applying...but just to give you a biased outsider's point of view...Stanford's administration is reputedly one of the best and best-run out of all the schools. I think it may be PR or some other ranking thing, but for "admin runs like clockwork", Stanford's ranked higher than the others, and it's also no.3 for happiest students...followed closely by the only Ivy near the top, Dartmouth. And uh..yeah, I'm going there, so that's why I even know those stats. But someone needs to fight for one of those other schools on a Princeton board =)</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Plus this is just a cooler forum.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Haha you are very much correct :cool:</p>

11

<p>There's so much leaning in Princeton's favor over other schools in this respect (most have already been said, so I'll just reiterate and add a few):</p>

<p>1) Freshman seminars - the opportunity to learn from some of Princeton's biggest and baddest, and in a topic of your choosing (provided you apply and get accepted to the one you want, of course)
2) Writing seminars - Princeton takes the time to show you how it wants you to write. Many schools have this, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
3) Student-to-faculty ratio - get in while it's still low, haha. Actually, even with the growing student body, Princeton has said it plans to hire more professors to keep the ratio low.
4) Residential colleges - within your college you have a dean to help you with any and all things Princeton, academic advisers, residential advisers, residential groups, and other things to aid you in your academic pursuits.
5) Junior Papers/Senior Thesis - Small-group interaction your junior year with professors to write your Junior Paper(s) or do your Junior Independent Work in preparation for the Senior Thesis, where you'll be working with just yourself and a professor in your department.
6) Quality administration - This isn't to say you won't have to wait in line or that you will always get what you want, but Princeton does its best to cater to your needs. There are a bajillion councils and committees that oversee undergraduate studies, so you'll never run out of people to turn to.
7) The people - true, the grade cap has made things tougher on students and perhaps even given rise to competitiveness, but there are still just as many study groups, review sessions, problem set parties, etc. to help you when you need it. Princetonians help each other out.
8) The campus - the campus is smaller, especially when you compare it to HYS and many other top schools. The smaller campus located in a cozy, quaint mid-Atlantic township lends itself to that close-knit feeling you'll need when the going gets rough.
9) Career and internship services - I know several freshman this year who are already prepped to attend excellent Princeton-sponsored programs both here and abroad during the summer. And when you graduate, you have an entire office there to help you get to where you want to go, which will be somewhere special thanks to the hard workers in the office and the Princeton name on your diploma.</p>

<p>I know I've left out a bunch of stuff, but these are just some of the things that really stood out to me when I was choosing which college to apply early to. Princeton will help you out, but definitely don't expect it to do all the work for you. This is one of the top schools in the nation, after all. But you've said you don't, so yay, haha.</p>

<p>And yes, this is the coolest forum. Don't forget it, haha. I joooos keeeeeding....sort of.</p>