I was talking to a friend whose kid goes to a high ranking public school for the gifted in a low-income neighborhood. Her son is receiving a few low grades (Cs and Ds), but he wants to go to a particular ivy league school. She told me that her son will have no problem getting into this ivy because this particular ivy takes a lot of kids from this high school, and since the school doesn’t give out many As, it’s not so bad to have some Cs and Ds, and the fact that they live in a low income zip code will also help. (They themselves are not low income.) Apparently lots of kids from said high school go into the ivy leagues.
Is she clueless or am I? In our high school (top ranking public) a kid would never dream of being able to get into an Ivy with Cs and Ds, or anything less than a 4.0 GPA and probably more. Does your zip code make that much of a difference? Does the school make that much of a difference? I know some schools (e.g., some top preps) have some serious grade deflation, but not to this extent - and even with grade deflation there has to be some way for the college to tell what the highest grades and lowest grades are that are being given out (I would think). BTW, she says her son is in about the top 25% of the class with a 3.8 weighted GPA (not sure how school weights), so even if the school doesn’t give out that many As, it’s not like he’s in the top 10%.
Thanks for any insight into this. I really really wanted to tell her that maybe she needs to look in another direction with him re: colleges - but maybe I’m wrong? She feels that he is brilliant but just doesn’t care about certain subjects, hence the low grades in them.
So what is the issue? Your friend thinks her kid has a chance at certain schools. It’s not your job to educate her on college admissions. Maybe her son IS brilliant and DOES have a good shot. Why do you care?
I wasn’t trying to be harsh. Many of us have “been there” with friends who are delusional about their (or their kids’) prospects at particular colleges. All I was trying to ask was, why is it YOUR responsibility to set her straight? (BTW, I tried this with one friend and it failed miserably.)
Nobody wants to hear that their kid “isn’t good enough” – especially from a friend. Unless they are doing something illegal or immoral, I generally say “that’s great” when my friends talk about their kids. At most you could mention that she should be sure to talk to the HS guidance counselor about what colleges make sense to apply to.
It’s not but…well, I went to the school her son is interested in, so I think she was looking for validation. I also do alumni interviews, but not in her area, and I’m not privy anyway to applicant’s grades and scores unless they choose to bring a resume to the interview which lists them. I have no familiarity with the situation described and thought perhaps there really is something of which I’m unaware involving these types of schools. (I’m being a little vague for confidentiality reasons.) If there isn’t, you are right, I can’t do much but “smile and nod” (over the phone).
The best you can do in this case would be to suggest that she chat with her child’s guidance counselor, because that person will know the profiles of students who have been accepted at the college/university in question in the past few years.
I went to a high achieving, low income school (80% of students were on some sort of government assistance) - and we were not given preferential treatment when it came to the Ivies. Harvard scooped up the Valedictorian occasionally but the Valedictorian was not dull relative to those of surrounding, wealthier neighborhoods – 2200+ SAT, 4.0 GPA, Varsity Captain, yaddayaddayadda.
Naviance, to which many (most?) schools subscribe, has a feature that provides a plot of every student that applied to a particular school over the past x (5?) years. You can choose the axes from a limited list, but say you choose SAT score plotted against GPA. A point on the plot (one for each school with sufficient data) represents a student from that school who applied to that university. The point is coded as accepted, deferred/accepted, deferred/denied, and denied acceptance. In one snapshot she can see how students from that school have fared with that ivy over the past five years, and visualize where her child fits into that schema.
This scattergram of actual data from the school may be very illuminating to your friend, if they believe data (does she believe in global warming, or does she believe that everyone is entitled to her own opinion?).
A GC could pull up that screen if her child does not yet have access to Naviance.
Naviance, to which many (most?) schools subscribe, has a feature that provides a plot of every student that applied to a particular school over the past x (5?) years. You can choose the axes from a limited list, but say you choose SAT score plotted against GPA. A point on the plot (one for each school with sufficient data) represents a student from that school who applied to that university. The point is coded as accepted, deferred/accepted, deferred/denied, and denied acceptance. In one snapshot she can see how students from that school have fared with that ivy over the past five years, and visualize where her child fits into that schema.
This scattergram of actual data from the school may be very illuminating to your friend, if they believe data (does she believe in global warming, or does she believe that everyone is entitled to her own opinion?).
A GC could pull up that screen if her child does not yet have access to Naviance.
It all depends. You shouldn’t have worry about his grades in order to validate your friend’s claim. It shouldn’t be that hard to find out how many kids from that school are going to your college since you are an alum. Once you know that, you simply walk into the school check out the school profile if they don’t post one online.
Many colleges these days push for recruiting from schools like the one you are describing and so I would be surprised if she was actually wrong. Whether her son stands a chance or not totally depends on the kind of candidates that are being accepted from that school.
I wouldn’t be surprised if kids from a low income magnet school are being snapped up even if their records aren’t quite perfect, but probably these kids really are low income and most likely some are URM’s as well. But I would expect the colleges are looking at individuals, not zip codes. The admissions officers may not be as forgiving to a higher income kid coming out of the same hs as a low income one.
Incidentally, I wouldn’t assume that “many” or “most” schools have Naviance. Ours certainly doesn’t, and I’ve never heard of it outside of this site. Checking wikipedia, apparently they have 8500 subscribers (out of some 37,000 high schools in the US).
And if naviance shows every kid within 50 points of SAT and .2 of gpa gets in? What then? Is it still a lock or is it still a reach for everyone.
See, what I have notice when looking at naviance graphs of elite schools is a mix of green squares and red exes in the upper right, and nothing but red exes below 2100 SAT, regardless of gpa. The further you go down the top twenty ranked, the more green squares you see, but still lots of exes below 90 gpa and 2100 SAT There is the RARE outlier who I just assume is hooked.
I think she is deluding herself. All you can tell her is that it is not your experience that kids with C’s and D’s get into your school or similar. Top 25 pct is pretty good though. A county a bit away from me is a generally low income area and there is a magnet school, well it has a regular program but it also has the only IB program so kids commute from all over the county and most are on free lunch, there are a lot of URM. The IB program is very competitive and the students who do well and get multiple offers from very competitive schools, but still Ivy slots are still hard to come by. Last year’s val is at Yale. Two were admitted to Brown but didn’t go. Those kids are not getting C and Ds. If she happens to know that the school takes a lot of kids from that school that is good to know. But all you can say is that she had better have backups, I would show my skepticism to my friend. I hope her attitude isn’t making the kid complacent with his grades.
Low grades are low grades. The fact that a high school tries to make higher quality academic opportunities available is only part of the story, the rest is up to the kid. If he can’t achieve in his hs, no matter whether they give few A’s, the adcom can wonder what says he will push and propel himself at this college. Unfortunately, you don’t get in because your mother believes in you.
Not all magnets or “gifted” high schools are strenuous or have all kids on a rigorous track. So, top 25% (sometimes, even top 10%,) doesn’t tell much. 3.8w suggests he’s had many non-A classes. It’ll matter what those non-A’s are in, but C and D are tough. Too much competition from other kids at low SES hs, who are doing their best, plus achieving outside class.
Best bet is to talk about safeties, the way CC does. They’ll find out on their own if he’s not Ivy material.
"Her son is receiving a few low grades (Cs and Ds), but he wants to go to a particular ivy league school. She told me that her son will have no problem getting into this ivy because this particular ivy takes a lot of kids from this high school, and since the school doesn’t give out many As, it’s not so bad to have some Cs and Ds, and the fact that they live in a low income zip code will also help. "
Smile, nod, and change the subject. If she wants to believe this drivel, it’s on her.
Pizzagirl beat me to it. The Smile and Nod with subject change is all you have to do. You don’t have to “correct” anything. Some parents will always believe their child is a special case. You’re not going to change her mind on that. She and her child (and I suppose, you) will find out sooner or later.
You can certainly talk in general about how difficult it is to get into this particular school, maybe even (as many say true or not) that you aren’t sure you could get in today and then talk about the need for every single applicant to have a safety school that they are happy to attend. You may be able to do this without talking specifically about this kid, but that you have heard of kids with high stats that only applied to elite schools and were shut out of every one. And add that you hope he get in somewhere he will be happy.
I think smiling and nodding is a bit mean a thing to do to a friend. I’d be honest. I’d say that in my experience it was unusual for someone with more than one C or D on their record unless it happened freshman to be accepted at any school has selective as any of the Ivies, but since you don’t know her school, she should make an appointment with the GC, or even better her kid should, to find out just what sort of grades are required.
I think an A- minority student with a hardship story and good SAT scores might well get into some pretty reachy schools. But a middle class kid who just happens to be attending a gifted school in a low SES neighborhood? Not so much.